• We have updated our Community Code of Conduct. Please read through the new rules for the forum that are an integral part of Paradox Interactive’s User Agreement.

PanosB3

Quartermaster General
On Probation
8 Badges
Mar 1, 2015
435
482
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Cities: Skylines
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • Hearts of Iron IV Sign-up
  • Imperator: Rome Sign Up
  • Victoria 3 Sign Up
With so many IF threads I started thinking scenarios, and I had never thought what would have happened if Operation Valkyrie had succeeded. Would it even change much? I mean the war was pretty much lost for the Germans at that point but could they have achieved a peace with the west or something similar?
How would the new government action militarily compared to Hitler?
 

Karimas

Second Lieutenant
49 Badges
Aug 5, 2011
129
187
  • Semper Fi
  • Stellaris - Path to Destruction bundle
  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Victoria: Revolutions
  • Knights of Pen and Paper +1 Edition
  • Hearts of Iron III Collection
  • Hearts of Iron III: Their Finest Hour
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • Arsenal of Democracy
  • Europa Universalis III
  • A Game of Dwarves
  • Crusader Kings II
  • For the Motherland
  • Shadowrun: Hong Kong
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Death or Dishonor
  • Stellaris: Synthetic Dawn
  • Cities: Skylines - Green Cities
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Stellaris: Apocalypse
  • Cities: Skylines - Parklife Pre-Order
  • Cities: Skylines - Parklife
  • Shadowrun Returns
  • Shadowrun: Dragonfall
  • Cities: Skylines Industries
  • Stellaris: Megacorp
  • Stellaris: Ancient Relics
  • Imperator: Rome
  • Cities: Skylines - Campus
  • Prison Architect
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Stellaris: Leviathans Story Pack
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Teleglitch: Die More Edition
  • Victoria 2
  • Warlock: Master of the Arcane
  • Cities: Skylines
  • Europa Universalis IV: Pre-order
  • Cities: Skylines - After Dark
  • Stellaris
  • Hearts of Iron IV Sign-up
  • Stellaris Sign-up
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Stellaris: Digital Anniversary Edition
  • Steel Division: Normandy 44
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
In our timeline? No can really say, maybe they get a deal with the west, maybe not. German Scientists did instantly work for US and SU for example, but a deal with whole germany? That could work out... but just maybe. Could also end in an uprising in germany, wich would be the fastest end for the that war. (As well as get all into seriously strange peace talks.)

And if no deal would be found, i guess germany would surrender sooner. For the battle... i think they just would a little less "fight and die" and more "retreat and survive". Who has the power will decide that.
 
  • 2
Reactions:

FOARP

Field Marshal
49 Badges
Sep 10, 2008
6.137
4.022
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Sword of the Stars II
  • Sword of the Stars
  • Semper Fi
  • Victoria: Revolutions
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Naval War: Arctic Circle
  • Magicka
  • Heir to the Throne
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • Gettysburg
  • For the Motherland
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Arsenal of Democracy
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: Sunset Invasion
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Darkest Hour
  • Europa Universalis III
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Divine Wind
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Steel Division: Normandy 44 -  Back to Hell
  • Steel Division: Normand 44 - Second Wave
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Death or Dishonor
  • Steel Division: Normandy 44
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Field Marshal
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Colonel
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Hearts of Iron IV Sign-up
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Mount & Blade: With Fire and Sword
  • Mount & Blade: Warband
  • 500k Club
  • Warlock: Master of the Arcane
  • Victoria 2
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Europa Universalis IV
1) The assessment by British intelligence that leaving Hitler in place actually shortened the war, since he was so incompetent as a leader, does have something to it.

2) A separate peace with the western Allies would have been a non-starter. Neither Churchill nor Roosevelt would have had anything to do with that.

3) It's entirely possible that Hitler may have been succeeded by a fanatical Nazi had he been assassinated - Bormann or Doenitz, for example.
 
  • 3
  • 3
  • 1
Reactions:

Raptor83

Colonel
27 Badges
Jun 9, 2010
1.086
802
  • Hearts of Iron II: Armageddon
  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Semper Fi
  • Victoria: Revolutions
  • Magicka
  • Heir to the Throne
  • Hearts of Iron III: Their Finest Hour
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • Divine Wind
  • Europa Universalis III: Chronicles
  • Europa Universalis III
  • Darkest Hour
  • For the Motherland
  • Cities in Motion
  • Arsenal of Democracy
  • Prison Architect
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Death or Dishonor
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Field Marshal
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Colonel
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Hearts of Iron IV Sign-up
  • 500k Club
  • Victoria 2
  • Crusader Kings II
1) The assessment by British intelligence that leaving Hitler in place actually shortened the war, since he was so incompetent as a leader, does have something to it.

2) A separate peace with the western Allies would have been a non-starter. Neither Churchill nor Roosevelt would have had anything to do with that.

3) It's entirely possible that Hitler may have been succeeded by a fanatical Nazi had he been assassinated - Bormann or Doenitz, for example.

1. I wouldnt count Doenitz as "fanatical Nazi".

2. Since conspirators knew, that Germany was doomed to lose the war, they could have also capitulate, or move extra troops to eastern front - which would slow down Red Army, while allowing fasted advance by allies.

3. things that cannot be discussed here would very likely end if conspirators were able to overthrow government.
 
  • 2
Reactions:

frolix42

Kilwa is my Jam
110 Badges
Nov 22, 2009
3.578
4.036
  • Sengoku
  • For the Motherland
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • Hearts of Iron III: Their Finest Hour
  • Knights of Pen and Paper +1 Edition
  • March of the Eagles
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Victoria: Revolutions
  • Rome Gold
  • Semper Fi
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • Supreme Ruler: Cold War
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
  • Rome: Vae Victis
  • Cities: Skylines - Snowfall
  • Cities: Skylines Deluxe Edition
  • Europa Universalis IV: Pre-order
  • Pillars of Eternity
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: Sunset Invasion
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Divine Wind
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Mount & Blade: With Fire and Sword
  • Crusader Kings II: Conclave
  • Mount & Blade: Warband
  • Pride of Nations
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • 500k Club
  • War of the Roses
  • Victoria 2
  • Stellaris Sign-up
  • Stellaris: Nemesis
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Hearts of Iron IV Sign-up
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
What if Valkyrie had happened earlier? for example 1942-43? Would then make a difference?
Or before Barbarossa?

It seems to me that "Valkyrie", or something like it, should have a trigger requirement that Germany be losing the war. Nor should it be a "get-out-of-Jail-Free" card for Germany.

Two similar events, Burgundian Inheritance and Iberian Wedding, have been known to frustrate players.
 
Last edited:
  • 4
Reactions:

Sharp163

Major
28 Badges
Aug 3, 2015
688
1.761
  • Darkest Hour
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Europa Universalis IV: Pre-order
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Stellaris: Apocalypse
  • Hearts of Iron IV Sign-up
  • Stellaris: Leviathans Story Pack
  • Stellaris - Path to Destruction bundle
  • Stellaris: Synthetic Dawn
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • Stellaris: Distant Stars
  • Stellaris: Megacorp
  • Imperator: Rome
  • Stellaris: Ancient Relics
  • Stellaris
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Victoria 2
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Semper Fi
  • Hearts of Iron III Collection
  • Hearts of Iron III: Their Finest Hour
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • For the Motherland
Doesn't matter.

Germany had already lost the war at that point, and the allies would only accept unconditional surrender after the Casablanca conference (a year before Valkyrie).

The peace treaty ending the war was signed by the Flensberg government, after Hitler had committed suicide. The only difference would be that he would've died a year earlier... Göring would've taken over the Reich, as Hitler had directed as early as 1942. (The Flensberg government was directed by Donitz, as Hitler was convinced that Göring was trying to assume control of the Reich in a coup, and had Göring arrested. This was, of course, completely false, but Hitler was on the verge of insanity and amid one of his nervous breakdowns during the final days of the war. Read more about it here:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Göring_Telegram

)

Not much would be different.
 
  • 4
Reactions:

dsteve3

Lt. General
93 Badges
Oct 17, 2002
1.352
222
forum.paradoxplaza.com
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Semper Fi
  • Sengoku
  • Sword of the Stars
  • Sword of the Stars II
  • Victoria 2
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • 500k Club
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • Europa Universalis IV: Pre-order
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • Crusader Kings II: Conclave
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mare Nostrum
  • Stellaris
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Hearts of Iron IV Sign-up
  • Stellaris Sign-up
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Colonel
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Field Marshal
  • Hearts of Iron IV: No Step Back
  • Divine Wind
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: Sunset Invasion
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Darkest Hour
  • East India Company
  • Europa Universalis III
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • For the Motherland
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • Hearts of Iron III: Their Finest Hour
  • Heir to the Throne
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Majesty 2 Collection
Doesn't matter.

Germany had already lost the war at that point, and the allies would only accept unconditional surrender after the Casablanca conference (a year before Valkyrie).

The peace treaty ending the war was signed by the Flensberg government, after Hitler had committed suicide. The only difference would be that he would've died a year earlier... Göring would've taken over the Reich, as Hitler had directed as early as 1942. (The Flensberg government was directed by Donitz, as Hitler was convinced that Göring was trying to assume control of the Reich in a coup, and had Göring arrested. This was, of course, completely false, but Hitler was on the verge of insanity and amid one of his nervous breakdowns during the final days of the war. Read more about it here:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Göring_Telegram

)

Not much would be different.


This about sums it up. Any other scenario would be impossible.

Too much at stake. The fact that neither the Americans or Stalin trusted the other made any more deals too difficult to orchestrate.

As a game mechanic, the only thing I can think of is if either is so much farther ahead that they would be willing to take the chance at escalating hostilities with the other.

For example: If America wasn't at war with Japan (for whatever reason), and was concentrating solely on Europe, they may be willing to act to push the Soviets right out of Eastern Europe.

Or if the Germans didn't make much headway into the Soviet Union during Barbarossa, and the Americans were having a hard time in the Pacific, they may want to swing a deal with the remaining German state in exchange for an equivalent "Warsaw Pact" in Eastern Europe.

But its strictly limited to what they think they could get away with. This isn't about ending the war for Germany, though. Its about taking something extra.

Remember, the Americans basically reneged on major deals as soon as the war was over - like the Cairo agreement on the vote in Korea, for example. Diplomatic negotiations are forever in flux.
 

VladVirgil96

Corporal
36 Badges
Jul 5, 2014
38
12
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rule Britannia
  • Crusader Kings II: Conclave
  • Crusader Kings II: Reapers Due
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rights of Man
  • Crusader Kings II: Monks and Mystics
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mandate of Heaven
  • Age of Wonders III
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cradle of Civilization
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Europa Universalis IV: Dharma
  • Crusader Kings II: Holy Fury
  • Europa Universalis IV: Golden Century
  • Crusader Kings III
  • Europa Universalis 4: Emperor
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Pride of Nations
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Europa Universalis IV: Third Rome
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Crusader Kings II: Jade Dragon
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Crusader Kings II: Sunset Invasion
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
The 20th July plot was doomed to failure from the start. The conspirators can be considered at best amateurish and at worst even more incompetent than Hitler himself. This guys wasted precious hours after the bomb exploded at Rastenburg wandering if Hitler was dead and waiting the arrival of von Stauffenberg to hear from him what had happened, without doing anything significant in the mean time. When they decided to act, the whole plan was extremely lacking. For example, there were no attempts to arrest the most important National Socialist leaders, like Himmler, Göring, Goebbels etc. There were no attempts to send forces to occupy the Wolf's Lair and arrest all those present. There were no attempts to take control of the OKH and the OKW. Generalfeldmarschall von Witzleben, who was to be the new Head of State, didn't show up until 8 p.m., when it was clear that the plot had failed. This guy was supposed to address the German nation a message about how the SS killed Hitler and launched a failed coup and how he and his fellows crushed the rebellion and assumed control of the state, but he was too lazy to write the message, so no broadcast was made. And this were insignificant blunders, when compared with the following two failures. General Fellgiebel, who was in charge of all the communications at the Wolf's Lair, proved unable to cut Hitler's private lines, so he was able to direct the crushing of the plot. The other major failure was that the conspirators ordered that the Propaganda Ministry be surrounded by troops, but didn't order the cutting of the communications, so Goebbels was able to call at Rastenburg and obtain a direct line with Hitler. Then, he asked the commander of the forces around his Ministry to come and speak with him (Goebbels). When the officer arrived, Goebbels asked him if he was a National Socialist. The answer was affirmative. After this, Goebbels gave his phone and invited him to speak with Hitler, which gave him orders to crush the coup. And this were just a few examples of incompetence off the top of my head.

But let's assume that the leaders of the plot were at least somewhat competent, that Hitler was dead and the conspirators were able to take control of the state. Would they have been able to reach an agreement with the Allies? To be able to answer this question, we must look at the ideas of one of the leading figures: Carl Goerdeler, the new Chancellor. The most striking feature of him was that he greatly surpassed Hitler's wishful thinking. Just an illustrative example: in 1943, he expressed his certainty that, if he met Hitler, he would be able to persuade him to step down and let him (Goerdeler) to assume control (I am not joking, he really thought this). He also thought that Germany was entitled to annex parts of Poland, Alsace-Lorraine and other territories. His offer for peace was something along the lines: Germany retains its gains prior to the start of the war, the annexed Polish areas (including those with Polish majority), Alsace-Lorraine, South Tirol and a more advantageous border with the USSR (read as annexing territories with non-German majority, because Lebensraum). This were his conditions, despite Germany was losing the war on three fronts, with no hope to achieve a favorable stalemate. Do you think that the Allies would have accepted this delusional offer?

My opinion is that, even if the coup would have been successful, the fate of Germany was sealed. The only positive outcome for the German people would have been that the plotters, being less fanatical than Hitler, would have capitulated earlier. We must not forget that the 20th July plotters were unrealistic and amateurish and that their only result was to give Hitler even more reasons to distrust his generals, in a time when the military situation was dire. And, as we all know, this had catastrophic consequences for the German people.
 
  • 3
Reactions:

Czert

Lt. General
3 Badges
Mar 20, 2006
1.628
227
  • Europa Universalis III
  • 500k Club
  • Stellaris Sign-up
for me these plotters were display of wishes of germans, not only nazis, but normal and even anti-nazis.
they wanted peace with west and war with soviets - same as hitler.
they wanted to keep all annexed teritory . austria, czechoslovakia, poland - same as hitler.

onlyest difference that they didnt wanted mas murdering in death camps, but still viewed slavic races as inferior.

so not great difference from hitler.
 
  • 5
  • 1
Reactions: