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krieger11b

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Another question comes to mind: if the British isles got overrun by the Nazi's will Japan DoW the USA? If Europe is under nazi control it's in the USA's interest to have peace with the nazi's to enable trade again.

Good point there, with the UK gone the only choice the USA would have had to help it's struggling economy would be to trade with Germany, as with war with the USSR would mean that Germany would be in dire need of US food and oil, and with the USSR looking like it might lose, US companies would want their goods paid for in Reich Marks and not the soon to be useless Soviet Rupples.

Furthermore, with the US almost totally incapable of fighting Germany, Roosevelt likely would have to give up his plans of getting war with Germany using Japan as the back door might not a messed with Japan too. The only hope for economic recovery for the USA was to trade with Germany and Japan.
 

33Vortex

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Ummm, the only hope for economic recovery for the USA was to go to war. Look at pre-war USA and post-war USA, it was like a total makeover.
 
Apr 1, 2009
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Well Crete was in 41... so think.

Subs with CAS like stukas for help? and what is left of Kriegsmarine after Norway. Theres much what if but I just say it again - IF Germans had ruled the skyies then UK was lost.
 

unmerged(87984)

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" Shift in administration, sabotage, problems of coordination, supply issues, there's too much friction going on. "

None of these exist, once the IC was moved to your own territory. And in reality there are a few crucial pieces of equipment that can produce your planes and tanks, which would be most important in your output so you would focus on operating those and take the efficiency hit on consumer goods. Of course you would just mostly transport the IC Soviet style to where it is safe. And of course full conscription of the population, sending the French conscripts to garrison Ukraine the Ukranians to garrison France, etc... Not frontline service in large numbers but partisan suppression mostly. If they do not perform up to standard they do so at the threat of execution if they do perform they are fast tracked for full citizenship.

Those issues exist prior to moving the industry however. I'm not saying that the industry, conscription potential and material from the UK wouldn't have been a large boon to germany, however firstly, that would require a surrender that includes an occupation by germany, and secondly it wouldn't be on a 1:1 basis like with full IC takeover.

Vicky had this modelled perfectly you could conscript anyone but the division ethnicity was noted in the unit. Ahhh Vicky... Such great concepts as real population numbers, real manpower, ethnicity for divs etc etc etc, what a great game.

Would not dare to disagree here :D
 
Apr 1, 2009
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Ummm, the only hope for economic recovery for the USA was to go to war. Look at pre-war USA and post-war USA, it was like a total makeover.

???
Who new that it wold turn in a long time into benefit? In short time after war they were in trouble but for long time economy it was a boost.

EDIT:
US going to war with no allies but Canada and Ozzie + NZ and no chance of victory? Give me a break...
 

unmerged(45977)

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Ummm, the only hope for economic recovery for the USA was to go to war. Look at pre-war USA and post-war USA, it was like a total makeover.

No one knew that. And the obvious choice, after the defeat of the UK, would be to help the Germans in their war against the Russians. If the Germans would lose that war all of Europe would turn into one big Communist state. I really think the Americans would want to trade with Europe again.
 

unmerged(147859)

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You need to look at Dunkirk again. The German airpower was able to do what against slow clumsy transport ships you said?

Dunkirk is an unfair example of the Luftwaffe's anti-naval abilities. Halder complains of bad weather grounding it often during the Dunkirk evacuation [source: pp 808 The Rise and Fall of the Third Reich, vol 2] and the other "half of the time" the Luftwaffe was "Unexpectedly opposed by the RAF based across the Channel and successfully challenged for the first time of the war". That is not quite the same as "Leaving the ships to the wolves" as Herr Oberst said you cannot do (without repercussion).

The Luftwaffe still knocked out 243 of 861 shipping vessels - let's call that a fourth - in a few days with bad weather and the RAF winning the first aerial battles of the war for the allies. [All in the Rise and Fall of the Third Reich, same pages]

The German High Command was rather stunned, and prior to this example had factored very little of the RAF's capacities. During the Battle over Britain the British wouldn't enjoy the complete surprise of the spitfire's effectiveness again, although effective Radar facilities also would shock the Germans.

Given the context of "What if sealion..." I'd assert that the Luftwaffe saw "Fair weather" and had beaten (or at least driven back) the RAF in the skies over Britain/English Channel. I think that the most valid argument against a successful sealion is that the UK was outproducing Germany in Aircraft production pretty handily in 1941, making air supremacy hard to attain for the Germans. (Overlooking the Historical failures, of course)

Manstein writes (and I'm inclined to agree) that the outcome of the decisive battle in the English Channel would have sealed the fate of the invading forces - but that the conditions would be much more favorable for the Germans fighting the British over the channel rather than over mainland Britain. Where British pilots could return to fighter base and get back into the fight after a plane was shot down. (Sorry my copy of Lost Victories is on loan, I can't give a page)

With regards to the Soviet Union attacking Germany in the rear, I doubt it for a few reasons:

Firstly, the Optimal time would have been while Germany was attacking France, Britian, Belgium and the Netherlands, not after Germany had overran them and forced the British back the home islands. What is not in contention is if the German Fleets/Airforce could have shipped (and supplied) much more than a tithe of the German Army to Britain. The rest of that army would have been prepared for a defensive war against the Soviets, save a few reserves.

Secondly, the German Ambassador to Moscow (Schulenburg) had stated in May of 1941, "...Stalin has set himself the goal of preserving the Soviet Union from a conflict with Germany." [pp 924 The Rise and Fall of the Third Reich] Or in other words Russia does not want war with Germany. Granted, he's one person, and a person can make a mistake. However, he had something none of us here have - Access to Stalin and Molotov, giving him a little more credibility.
 

unmerged(97780)

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Im a big fans of what ifs..

Now if anyone knows of a thread like this already, please direct me to it and close this one off.

If not, then let me know your thoughts on this.

In the real world ( not based on your HOI adventures please ) - what would REALLY have happened to the world, to your nearest guess, if Britain had lost The Battle Of Britain and been subjigated by the Nazis. What shape do you think the world would be in now ?

I personally think that the Battle of Britain was the real turning point of the whole era. What do you think ?


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fatherland_(novel)
There you go
 
Apr 1, 2009
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100% agree!
If you look at air battles of UK and Germans then it doesnt matter what kind of fighters took part but the distance. When it was that Germans where at favourable distance and it were brittish that have to return home and had short time for combat in the air then the losses were significantly different.
We say about greatness of UK (and allied) pilots - bullshit. It was the range and time in sky for air combat.

If as said above (which I didnt take into account before) Luftwaffe fought with RAF above the channel and not the main Isle it would be 1:1 losses. Take into account the numerical advantage and they win. The problem was over UK. Fighters couldnt support bombers long enough.
OTOH invasion would be possible without destroying RAF problems would be on the Island - especially the farther they go. So we are back to the start - airsupremacy decides about all.
 

33Vortex

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Also; I would disagree with the meme "war = economic recovery".

The banks are the only ones profiting from war, the more war the better for the banks. The banks drive the economy, particularly the Federal Reserve, which isn't a government run bank but a private one. So, the more war the more money goes to the banks through interest rates on loans etc, the more war the more people die.

War = good for the banks, bad for the people. If the USA had stayed out of the war, USA would not be a superpower today. They wanted to make the USA into a military powerhouse, and so they did.
 

nwinther

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If UK falls, everything would likely be "reset". A peace would have been sought before London falls, and Hitler was likely to make it a favourable peace - he had no wishes to bring the British Empire down (quite the contrary). The King would remain, the government would change somewhat (Churchill would surely be removed) but I doubt Germany would seek complete German dominance over Britain. Perhaps giving up some colonies to Italy. The next thing would be a return to normal for France, also with a more friendly government, of course. And probably some naval concessions on both parts. And a lift of the blocade of course. This would remove the need for Germany to keep strong garrisons in France and Norway - something like 70 divisions right there! And the Balkans would be eating out of Hitlers hand, as there was no one to apply pressure otherwise (i.e. the British). No garrisons there either, saving greatly on Italian morale.

Barbarossa would look different. Perhaps it wouldn't happen - but if it did, it would be with France and Britains grace. Anything is possible from there, really. Hitler would be much stronger, but would Britain and France remain dormant? Even as friendly nations? If they support, or at least don't work against Germanys efforts, I believe that Germany could bring Stalin down. With massive air-power and a hugely enlarged army, with no disruptions of logistics, and a better premise to reinforce logistice, Hitler could go much further than he did historically. Add to that the complete lack of British (and most likely US) aid to the Soviet Union. Russia produced hardly any wheeled vehicles themselves (trucks, jeeps etc.), as they came from British and US factories, giving USSR more room to produce Tanks. In this scenario, they'd have to transfer considerable ressources to softskin vehicle production - ressources the USSR simply didn't have. Germany could, at least, bleed Russia white, forcing Stalin to seek a peace.
 

33Vortex

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100% agree!
If you look at air battles of UK and Germans then it doesnt matter what kind of fighters took part but the distance. When it was that Germans where at favourable distance and it were brittish that have to return home and had short time for combat in the air then the losses were significantly different.
We say about greatness of UK (and allied) pilots - bullshit. It was the range and time in sky for air combat.

If as said above (which I didnt take into account before) Luftwaffe fought with RAF above the channel and not the main Isle it would be 1:1 losses. Take into account the numerical advantage and they win. The problem was over UK. Fighters couldnt support bombers long enough.
OTOH invasion would be possible without destroying RAF problems would be on the Island - especially the farther they go. So we are back to the start - airsupremacy decides about all.

The curious thing about this is that the Bf109s used in the spanish civil war did have droptanks. This feature was removed before the BoB, one has to question why this happened. It's buried in the bureaucracy of the RLM, which was a rather corrupt gang if you ask me. They consistently on many key decisions chose bad alternatives, hampering the capability of the Luftwaffe.
 
Apr 1, 2009
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The curious thing about this is that the Bf109s used in the spanish civil war did have droptanks. This feature was removed before the BoB, one has to question why this happened. It's buried in the bureaucracy of the RLM, which was a rather corrupt gang if you ask me. They consistently on many key decisions chose bad alternatives, hampering the capability of the Luftwaffe.

Exactly! And Luftwaffe lost not due to the fighters or pilots - due to decisions made on higher level. So we ask here what if. Its strange that ppl fight how UK was invincible in any cirumstances and that US would win alone or the immortal SU. The war was already won by the Reich and? They have lost... Decisions. They lost due to the high level mistakes.
 

Kuciwalker

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The banks are the only ones profiting from war, the more war the better for the banks. The banks drive the economy, particularly the Federal Reserve, which isn't a government run bank but a private one.

:rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl:

Sir, you are incorrect, to say the least. Suffice it to say that Congress has full authority to direct the Federal Reserve as it sees fit, and its chairman is appointed by the President.
 
Apr 1, 2009
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:rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl:
Thats not the best way of discussing.
I agree that it looks quite differen but is that a good way of stating opinion?
A lot of economy profits from war to start from unemployement to the arms industry and even small which works for gov and army - like parachute and clothes producing minors. War gives a lot in time of crisis.


EDIT:
Ok you edited your post - some more info added to the ROFLs ;)

EDIT2:
What was the SU economy based upon? even throughout the whole cold war period? Arms - the whole country was a one big weapon factory.
 
Last edited:

krieger11b

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:rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl:

Sir, you are incorrect, to say the least. Suffice it to say that Congress has full authority to direct the Federal Reserve as it sees fit, and its chairman is appointed by the President.

Oh really? Then why can't the congress ask to see all of the Federal Reserves books :rolleyes:
 

33Vortex

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:rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl:

Sir, you are incorrect, to say the least. Suffice it to say that Congress has full authority to direct the Federal Reserve as it sees fit, and its chairman is appointed by the President.

Get your facts straight Sir, you are making a fool of yourself.
 
Apr 1, 2009
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There's a big difference between picking up troops and sending them off to rest in Britain than picking up troops and sending them to make an opposed beach landing.

Did I said about beach landing? Land Paras and seize port/s. It would be quite a surprise - even bigger than Crete.
Its enough to have 2 para and 2 land in a week to stop any brittish counter in 1940. The rest can come with time. Its not such a problem to do it in stages - what wuld UK send there to throw them to the sea? Flint/musket snipers? ohh the armored divisions - I forgot about UKs Moto/Mech/Armored that were ready to repeal any invasion...
 
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