What if idea groups costed...

[unmerged(755241)]

What if choosing an idea from military group costed 200 admin and 200 diplomatic points instead. It could simulate nations focus on certain aspect, thus taking away from something else.

I don't really hate the current system but I just thought up this and wanted to share. Opinnions?

 

[Alsadius]

What if choosing an idea from military group costed 200 admin and 200 diplomatic points instead. It could simulate nations focus on certain aspect, thus taking away from something else.

I don't really hate the current system but I just thought up this and wanted to share. Opinnions?

Why on earth is everyone offended by the thought of choosing between ideas and techs? You shouldn't be able to focus your nation with laser-like precision on land forces(or economy, or making everyone love you, or...), because if you could then players would be doing world conquest games even faster. You have to choose how best to build up your army, you don't just get to have everything.

 

[unmerged(139685)]

Why on earth is everyone offended by the thought of choosing between ideas and techs? You shouldn't be able to focus your nation with laser-like precision on land forces(or economy, or making everyone love you, or...), because if you could then players would be doing world conquest games even faster. You have to choose how best to build up your army, you don't just get to have everything.

Because it will inevitably cause the area you choose to focus to be the worst tech you have, ceteris paribus. You don't have choice: you will always spend military points on military matters, and if you aren't particularly active militarily than naturally military tech is the obvious leftover option. Putting more effort in the fleet shouldn't result in you having a more backwards fleet than the countries that don't do it.

 

[unmerged(738483)]

Because it will inevitably cause the area you choose to focus to be the worst tech you have, ceteris paribus. You don't have choice: you will always spend military points on military matters, and if you aren't particularly active militarily than naturally military tech is the obvious leftover option. Putting more effort in the fleet shouldn't result in you having a more backwards fleet than the countries that don't do it.

I am not sure what the last part of that means. "Putting more effort in the fleet shouldn't result in you having a more backwards fleet than the other countries that don't do it"? Building a fleet doesn't effect any thing and putting points into naval tech makes it so your fleet is better... The only way this makes sense is if you build up a larger navy and other nations keep a smaller one but use Ideas to modify their navies.

If that is the case you are a noob and should have gotten the ideas that strengthen the way you are playing. The point of the ideas system is that not every nation is good at every thing. There are very few nations that have ever reached this pinnacle and they crumbled from the position relatively fast.

Please explain what you meant?

 

[1alexey]

Simple really:
You have awesome monarch stats, you get ahead of time penalry, and hence you can get same point ideas to get even more powerfull.

If you have bad monarch, you should pick either tech, or take ideas and hope you will catch up thanks to neighbour bonus.

 

[smellymummy]

what if you fall behind in tech? don't you get a larger neighbor bonus since other countries are going to be higher rated than you? sure you'll be behind, but once you start teching up, you'll be able to reach parity with other countries faster than if you were just normally leveling up tech

 

[Zhetone]

People are overreacting so much. Know what uses administration points? Cores, administration tech, and a few minor decisions. Oh no, choices! How dare the game make me save up resources for a few years!?
Military points? Used for military tech and various other small things. Really not seeing how military tech is so hard to get. In the demo as the Ottomans I fought wars aplenty and still had teched up with my military several times. In fact, I always had spare military points.
Diplomatic points are usually more scarce, but even then I found a lot of time to level up my tech with them.

Stop whining and play the game properly. I'm not even good at EU games and yet I was perfectly fine tech-wise. Yeah, sometimes you have to choose between national ideas and administrative tech, but administrative tech is designed to be a slower process. Choices are good.

 

[murlocmancer]

I honestly agree with this idea completly. It is counter-productive to go for a miltary idea and then you fall behind in military tech while your admin and diplo that you have less interest in will be your higher techs. I like you idea imo, or maybe atlast 200 military then 100 admin 100 diplo so there is still some picking just not as severe. Military wise and naval wise you cna get behind in ship/unit types which would really hurt you. Admin isn't that big of a deal as admin gives little tech wise and sometimes it is better from just an admin idea.

 

[Zhetone]

I honestly agree with this idea completly. It is counter-productive to go for a miltary idea and then you fall behind in military tech while your admin and diplo that you have less interest in will be your higher techs. I like you idea imo, or maybe atlast 200 military then 100 admin 100 diplo so there is still some picking just not as severe. Military wise and naval wise you cna get behind in ship/unit types which would really hurt you. Admin isn't that big of a deal as admin gives little tech wise and sometimes it is better from just an admin idea.

That doesn't even happen! Where do you people get these ideas!?

 

[unmerged(773066)]

I honestly agree with this idea completly. It is counter-productive to go for a miltary idea and then you fall behind in military tech while your admin and diplo that you have less interest in will be your higher techs. I like you idea imo, or maybe atlast 200 military then 100 admin 100 diplo so there is still some picking just not as severe. Military wise and naval wise you cna get behind in ship/unit types which would really hurt you. Admin isn't that big of a deal as admin gives little tech wise and sometimes it is better from just an admin idea.

It makes perfect sense, Technology just compounds the benefits you will be getting by adopting that new kind of thinking. National Ideas are the ground work and theory, the improvements to technology is implementing the adoptions of ideas and the infrastructure to manufacture the shiny new toys.

 

[murlocmancer]

That doesn't even happen! Where do you people get these ideas!?

What do you mean? It is a fact if you get a military idea, the other country without a military idea will have the higher military tech assumnig you are getting same monthly points. Now if you do this a few times, you get further and further behind. I have no clue whether or not tech or ideas are truly better as i have not played extensively enough but you will fall behind in tech if you get some ideas if the otehr person has same point amount.

 

[Heatth]

People are overreacting so much. Know what uses administration points? Cores, administration tech, and a few minor decisions. Oh no, choices! How dare the game make me save up resources for a few years!?
Military points? Used for military tech and various other small things. Really not seeing how military tech is so hard to get. In the demo as the Ottomans I fought wars aplenty and still had teched up with my military several times. In fact, I always had spare military points.
Diplomatic points are usually more scarce, but even then I found a lot of time to level up my tech with them.

Stop whining and play the game properly. I'm not even good at EU games and yet I was perfectly fine tech-wise. Yeah, sometimes you have to choose between national ideas and administrative tech, but administrative tech is designed to be a slower process. Choices are good.

Chill down. He is not whining nor complaining about the idea of having to menage resources. Much the opposite. His idea still have resource management and still have though choices to be made. His proposal is meant to address the cognitive dissonance issue where a nation that focus on a particular are ends up with worse technology in said area.

Personally, I really like the proposal. Even if Paradox doesn't subscribe to it, I will see if it is possible to mod that way and test it out.

That doesn't even happen! Where do you people get these ideas!?

What? Of course it does happen. If you focus on military ideas you will end up behind in military tech. On the same vein, not focusing on military means you get more military tech instead.

 

[Alsadius]

Tech is not the only thing that matters. If a tech is more useful than an idea, get the tech. If it's less useful, why are you bitching about having the idea?

 

[sskrypteia]

"what if idea groups cost*"

 

[Heatth]

Tech is not the only thing that matters. If a tech is more useful than an idea, get the tech. If it's less useful, why are you bitching about having the idea?

They are more or less balanced.

And, anyway, this is not the problem nor is "bitching" it is about addressing the cognitive dissonance caused by the system. Take the Portuguese, for example. In a historical game, they would pick Colonization and Trade as their first ideas. However, developing them means getting behind in Diplomacy tech. That means that, although historically Portugal was the specialists in ship building in Europe, they will only be able to build superior navy after the other non-diplomacy focused nations. On the other hand, despite not being involved in much warfare, they will have the most advanced units in the world, even if said units are not as efficient as they would be with another country.

 

[1alexey]

Well, let me just say that a lot of things that you get from Ideas are worthy of tech sacrifice.

Each level of tech that doesn`t give you great units, or bonus to tactics, are far less powerfull than ideas. Why do people thing being 1-4 levels behind in military tech but having a full military idea tree will make you weaker? Hell quality alone gives you a huge (>25% to unit power) bonus.

They are more or less balanced.

And, anyway, this is not the problem nor is "bitching" it is about addressing the cognitive dissonance caused by the system. Take the Portuguese, for example. In a historical game, they would pick Colonization and Trade as their first ideas. However, developing them means getting behind in Diplomacy tech. That means that, although historically Portugal was the specialists in ship building in Europe, they will only be able to build superior navy after the other non-diplomacy focused nations. On the other hand, despite not being involved in much warfare, they will have the most advanced units in the world, even if said units are not as efficient as they would be with another country.

That is only if you don`t factor in the ruler stats. If you have 4+ stat leader, you will have more than enought point to hit too far ahead tech penalty, so you can invest in both tech and ideas.

 

[Alsadius]

On the other hand, despite not being involved in much warfare, they will have the most advanced units in the world, even if said units are not as efficient as they would be with another country.

That sounds to me a whole lot like them not actually having the most advanced units in the world. What's the point of having a better name on a worse unit?

 

[logan23]

Why on earth is everyone offended by the thought of choosing between ideas and techs? You shouldn't be able to focus your nation with laser-like precision on land forces(or economy, or making everyone love you, or...), because if you could then players would be doing world conquest games even faster. You have to choose how best to build up your army, you don't just get to have everything.

Because people want to find the WIN button.

Games like these are meant to be challenging.

I like the new system since you have to make judgement on what to send your resources on.
Plus when playing online-- this feeling of should i squash some possible revolts or hold those points since im close to the next Tech level will keep you on your toes since you'r human players are less predictable.

Something that can work against an AI might end up dooming you against a human player,

 

[Heatth]

That sounds to me a whole lot like them not actually having the most advanced units in the world. What's the point of having a better name on a worse unit?

The unit is not actually worse, though. It is less efficient than another country if said country had the same unit. As soon as said country get the righ tech, they will surpass Portugal, but, until then, Portugal will be at the vantage or, at worst, on equal footing.

 

[unmerged(738483)]

I honestly agree with this idea completly. It is counter-productive to go for a miltary idea and then you fall behind in military tech while your admin and diplo that you have less interest in will be your higher techs. I like you idea imo, or maybe atlast 200 military then 100 admin 100 diplo so there is still some picking just not as severe. Military wise and naval wise you cna get behind in ship/unit types which would really hurt you. Admin isn't that big of a deal as admin gives little tech wise and sometimes it is better from just an admin idea.

You aren't taking into account that the neighbor bonus essentially keeps you within 2-3 techs. The military ideas actually help cover that gap by giving you bonuses your enemy might not have. If you have big idea bonuses to your military someone being ONE or TWO tech levels ahead isn't going to do that much. Not to mention over the 400 year game period the rise and fall of leader stats will probably be even across the board. Then add neighbor bonus and any events/missions that give you extra points AND any advisors you might use.