What If Germany won 41 vs SU but the Allies standing in Berlin in 45 ?
- Thread starter Ruck
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was a stupid idea
Doubt that even 8 million german soldiers would be able to hold up against attacks from Ukraine-Poland + Caucasus + urals (even thin forces...) and the local resistance. Also the morale would be less than 0 if you lost all of your country..... I think the country would just collapse theoretically at least.
If the Soviet Union fell in 1941, I doubt the allies would've kept fighting until 45. Germany would've turned its attention back to Britain, and continued with Plan Z in order to try to gain control of the channel eventually. The war would probably turn into something along the lines of what separates North and South Korea today, unless the allies sued for peace.
In fact, if the USSR fell, germany would've had access to the Siberian oil reserves, and thus Japan would be relatively unaffected by the US's oil embargo in mid 41. Ergo, Japan wouldn't have done Pearl Harbor, and without the USSR still kicking, the USA is very unlikely to join the allies at this point. If so, who is going to develop an atomic bomb? Britain probably wouldn't have the capabilities to do so until late 1940s or early 1950 (depending on if they still receive lend lease and blueprints from the US).
Most likely, the USSR would collapse, Hitler would set up the Reichkomissariats, and Britain would negotiate a peace. The US would've sunk even further into isolationism, and it would end up being a Cold War between Germany and GB.
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Why would you have 8 million soldiers in Russia while your enemy takes your homeland? Thats a bit of a stretch. If Germany has that amount of soldiers, there is no way the allies even attempt to land in Western Europe.
My opinion is that any delay in the european war simply means nukes on Hamburg and Cologne instead of Hiroshima and Nagasaki. Not that a nuke would do more damage than the conventional allied bombing raids, but psychological its something else.
If Russia really falls early however, I see the possibilty of Japan not attacking and thus the USA never entering the war.
In any case, if Russia falls, there is no way of allies in Berlin in 1945. How could they advance like historically if they had to face at least 2 million germans more, who are now not needed on the Eastern Front anymore?
But if you insist on your actual scenario, I'd say this 8 million soldiers come and take Berlin back. Or are there like 20 million allied soldiers in your scenario as well?
My opinion is that any delay in the european war simply means nukes on Hamburg and Cologne instead of Hiroshima and Nagasaki. Not that a nuke would do more damage than the conventional allied bombing raids, but psychological its something else.
If Russia really falls early however, I see the possibilty of Japan not attacking and thus the USA never entering the war.
In any case, if Russia falls, there is no way of allies in Berlin in 1945. How could they advance like historically if they had to face at least 2 million germans more, who are now not needed on the Eastern Front anymore?
But if you insist on your actual scenario, I'd say this 8 million soldiers come and take Berlin back. Or are there like 20 million allied soldiers in your scenario as well?
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No fair. You can't change the counter factual. The Allies still take Berlin in 1945 and instead of the Soviet Union there is some sort of Nazi rump state in Russia.
The fighting would continue until Poland was liberated. That's what started this whole mess, isn't it. If the fighting then stopped, a different type of Iron Curtain would have been erected further to the East. There would be freedom in Western Europe and a totalitarian nightmare in the East... until Reagan came along and saved the day.
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Isn't this basicly asking what would've happened if the Allies and Comintern were also at war? You just asked about Operation Unthinkable but with a larger Germany rather than Germany and the SU.
Plus, how would Germany even conquer Russia? They failed Typhoon totally, there was nowhere else they were going with the tiny, depleted forces they have, even encircling Moscow is an impossible task with Tula holding strong and the Moscow-Volga canal insecure. Then what? They fight in the city against soldiers entrenched in concrete buildings with ammo and fuel shortages with no heavy artillery. Fall Blau would also always end the same, because there is absolutely no way that Germany gets across the Caucasus to Baku with the supply lines that they have against determined resistance and dug-in soviets.
Simply impossible premise, so you've already failed on one account.
Simply impossible premise, so you've already failed on one account.
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No fair. You can't change the counter factual. The Allies still take Berlin in 1945 and instead of the Soviet Union there is some sort of Nazi rump state in Russia.
The fighting would continue until Poland was liberated. That's what started this whole mess, isn't it. If the fighting then stopped, a different type of Iron Curtain would have been erected further to the East. There would be freedom in Western Europe and a totalitarian nightmare in the East... until Reagan came along and saved the day.
Unless the Russians pull off their own resistance to the evil invaders:
(Do they have wolverines in Russia?)
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