What if Germany liberated Poland after keeping Danzig and it's earlier boundaries?

[hkrommel]

Then they wouldn't have been Nazis.

The whole attack on the Sovjet Union was driven by the ideology that Germany needs "Lebensraum" and that the natives were sub-humans who need to "disappear" so that German settlers can follow.

Without that ideology, no attack on the Sovjet Union would have taken part.

That's not entirely true. The Lebensraum idea had several components, only one of which was racial. Another was economic. The Nazis wanted to create an internal market sufficient to create an economy not reliant on exports, in order to compete with the United States. It could do that through direct conquest, but it also could do that through a system of puppets and allies, much like Napoleon did with the Continental System.

Whether the Nazis would ever separate that out, I agree that it was really unlikely, especially for people like Himmler. Either way though, the point is that Lebensraum was an entire system of thinking regarding Germany and its future that led to war against the USSR, not just racial. Even if Germany didn't care about the racial aspects and genuinely wanted to create allied states in the east for an internal market, it would need to forcibly break those states free from the USSR to do so.

 

[Gurkhal]

Then they wouldn't have been Nazis.

The whole attack on the Sovjet Union was driven by the ideology that Germany needs "Lebensraum" and that the natives were sub-humans who need to "disappear" so that German settlers can follow.

Without that ideology, no attack on the Sovjet Union would have taken part.

I'm not sure I agree.

Hatred for all kinds of Socialists would seem to me to have been rather wide-spread in the political right and in particular in the far-right at these times, and before and after that as well. If you combine this with a perception of German strength from the fall of Poland and France and Soviet weakness from Stalin's purges and Soviet performance in the Winter War then it makes sense to me that also other authorian right-wing German regimes could contemplate an attack on the Communist Soviet Union.

Be it from a fascist Germany in the Mussolini style or a German military dictatorship which was drunk, or high, on the victory over France.

 

[bz249]

Some things I am wondering right now: apart from Germany's northern faint against the Netherlands, is it true that they convinced the French of an impending offensive in the south against the Maginot-Line, tying down valuable troops there?
According to wikipedia, both sides mustered 3,3 million soldiers for the battle of France. Yet the combined French and British population base was larger than Germany's, no? Why didn't this translate into numerical superiority in the theater of war? What were the respective numbers in 1914, on the start of WWI?

Slight numerical superiority for the French in spite of the significantly larger German population base (Hochseeflotte I see you...).
That was one of the factor why outgeneralling the French in 1914 was not a decisive factor... the second one was transportation, even using the Belgian roads, this was the maximum amount which could have marched to the front. Basically even Schlieffen knew that he cannot supply the amount of men needed to decisively defeat the French in the required timeframe (even if he had had them at the first place, which he didn't had).

These factors forced the Germans to fight the decisive battle of Marne east of Paris and that the later Race to the Sea resulted in a stalemate. Put an adaquetely supplied German Army somewhere on the map and the result can be much different.

 

[Grandpa Maur]

That's not entirely true. The Lebensraum idea had several components, only one of which was racial. Another was economic. The Nazis wanted to create an internal market sufficient to create an economy not reliant on exports, in order to compete with the United States. It could do that through direct conquest, but it also could do that through a system of puppets and allies, much like Napoleon did with the Continental System.

Whether the Nazis would ever separate that out, I agree that it was really unlikely, especially for people like Himmler. Either way though, the point is that Lebensraum was an entire system of thinking regarding Germany and its future that led to war against the USSR, not just racial. Even if Germany didn't care about the racial aspects and genuinely wanted to create allied states in the east for an internal market, it would need to forcibly break those states free from the USSR to do so.

That's not unlikely, that's completely impossible. The project was about having huge, continent-spanning ethnostate that would have great potential to becoming world-dominating superpower, not some sort of fascist multiethnic federation.

(it wasn't about internal market, it was about resource access, but that's another issue)

 

[hkrommel]

That's not unlikely, that's completely impossible. The project was about having huge, continent-spanning ethnostate that would have great potential to becoming world-dominating superpower, not some sort of fascist multiethnic federation.

(it wasn't about internal market, it was about resource access, but that's another issue)

Read Wages of Destruction.

 

[Grandpa Maur]

Read Wages of Destruction.

I did. Well, then?

 

[hkrommel]

I did. Well, then?

Obviously not well enough. It discusses at length how Lebensraum’s economic component was all about developing an internal market to prevent currency crises like the ones that plagued Germany during the Great Depression and well into the Nazi regime. Germany’s dependence on exporting goods to other nations made it extremely weak economically during this period

 

[Acheron]

Obviously not well enough. It discusses at length how Lebensraum’s economic component was all about developing an internal market to prevent currency crises like the ones that plagued Germany during the Great Depression and well into the Nazi regime. Germany’s dependence on exporting goods to other nations made it extremely weak economically during this period

Have to reread the book, but I'd like to point out that during the war, the SS became quite lax but what sort of recruits they would take, even forming Russian formations. This does not mean that the Nazis had given up on their racist ideologies, only that it was postponed for the sake of wartime expediencies.

Really, the Lebensraum project to prevent currency crisis just doesn't fit with what we saw of the third Reich, autarcy, sure, but not for the sake of economic theory but pure brute logic of power.

 

[Grandpa Maur]

Obviously not well enough. It discusses at length how Lebensraum’s economic component was all about developing an internal market to prevent currency crises like the ones that plagued Germany during the Great Depression and well into the Nazi regime. Germany’s dependence on exporting goods to other nations made it extremely weak economically during this period

Well, it discusses at length how the Lebenraum concept was all about creating a global power that could rival other global empires.

Now, i might have missed the talk about internal market among all that Tooze writes about steel shortages and ammunition production swings. But perhaps you have a paragraph at hand?

 

[hkrommel]

Have to reread the book, but I'd like to point out that during the war, the SS became quite lax but what sort of recruits they would take, even forming Russian formations. This does not mean that the Nazis had given up on their racist ideologies, only that it was postponed for the sake of wartime expediencies.

Really, the Lebensraum project to prevent currency crisis just doesn't fit with what we saw of the third Reich, autarcy, sure, but not for the sake of economic theory but pure brute logic of power.

That's not entirely true. The Lebensraum idea had several components, only one of which was racial. Another was economic.

Either way though, the point is that Lebensraum was an entire system of thinking regarding Germany and its future that led to war against the USSR, not just racial.

Lebensraum’s economic component

Please read what I wrote before responding to it. Internal markets were a component that pre-existed the Nazis and were incorporated into the Lebensraum concept. Internal markets dominated Hitler's industrial thinking (see the paragraph below). That doesn't mean there wasn't a racial component, or an autarky component (though that was more of an independent strain), and I never claimed it was only about internal markets.

Well, it discusses at length how the Lebenraum concept was all about creating a global power that could rival other global empires.

Now, i might have missed the talk about internal market among all that Tooze writes about steel shortages and ammunition production swings. But perhaps you have a paragraph at hand?

Tooze (Page 10, discussing Hitler's thinking): "...not surprisingly, what most caught Hitler's eye was the American domination of the motor vehicle industry. Hitler, of course, was a motor enthusiast. But what concerned him in his 'Second Book' were the strategic implications of America's leadership in this crucial new industry. In their imaginings of a future of American affluence Europeans were apt to forget 'that the relationship of surface area to the population of the American continent is vastly superior...'. American's enormous competitive advantage in industrial technology was above all a function of 'the size of' America's 'internal market' and its 'wealth in purchasing power but also in raw materials.' It was the huge volume of 'guarantee[d]...internal sales' that enabled the American motor vehicle industry to adopt 'methods of production that in Europe due to the lack of such internal sales would simply be impossible.' Fordism, in other words, required Lebensraum."

There you have it. From Hitler himself.

 

[Grandpa Maur]

Funny, i remember that quote. I just don't think it says what you think it says:

The Nazis wanted to create an internal market sufficient to create an economy not reliant on exports, in order to compete with the United States. It could do that through direct conquest, but it also could do that through a system of puppets and allies, much like Napoleon did with the Continental System.

I am not sure though. Maybe i am reading you incorrectly. It seems as if you skip a few steps here:

1) Yes, the aim was to free German economy from depending on exporting. This means, Germany needs to be free from the need of exporting goods in order to import necessary resources. The means to it are territorial expansion, and creating continent spanning Germany.

2) USA (rightly) and UK (wrongly) were considered by Hitler a world powers, one with on it's own, second by virtue of the Empire. Germany needed to become one, or face subservience, which was unacceptable. Competition with US industry is part of the struggle, and efficiency of US industry needs to be matched. One of the aspects of it is the ability of US to use effects of scale in it's industry. Germany needs a way to match it. That can be done with huge internal market, or whatever else - it's a mean, not a goal.

The problem I have is that you seemed to imply that Nazi Germany wanted some sort of economic, free market (?) competition with USA.

While markets enabling economies of scale might be achieveable with system of puppets, and so is resource security, it's not satisfying. Add to that racial theories of Nazism, and the idea of puppet states formed from Slavic population is not going to be ever considered.

 

[hkrommel]

Funny, i remember that quote. I just don't think it says what you think it says:



I am not sure though. Maybe i am reading you incorrectly. It seems as if you skip a few steps here:

1) Yes, the aim was to free German economy from depending on exporting. This means, Germany needs to be free from the need of exporting goods in order to import necessary resources. The means to it are territorial expansion, and creating continent spanning Germany.

2) USA (rightly) and UK (wrongly) were considered by Hitler a world powers, one with on it's own, second by virtue of the Empire. Germany needed to become one, or face subservience, which was unacceptable. Competition with US industry is part of the struggle, and efficiency of US industry needs to be matched. One of the aspects of it is the ability of US to use effects of scale in it's industry. Germany needs a way to match it. That can be done with huge internal market, or whatever else - it's a mean, not a goal.

The problem I have is that you seemed to imply that Nazi Germany wanted some sort of economic, free market (?) competition with USA.

While markets enabling economies of scale might be achieveable with system of puppets, and so is resource security, it's not satisfying. Add to that racial theories of Nazism, and the idea of puppet states formed from Slavic population is not going to be ever considered.

Ok I think I see the misunderstanding. I never meant to imply that Germany wanted to compete with the US on its own free market terms. Germany's goal, rather, was to create an internal market both to enable economies of scale and to create a currency not dependent on the whims of export markets. The currency part is discussed more directly later and I couldn't find the exact passage (buried somewhere in chapter 2 or 3 I believe, after Schacht goes full Nazi), but the idea was that many of Germany's woes during and after the Depression revolved around currency devaluation because foreign currency wasn't flowing into the country through exports. If Germany had that "wealth in purchasing power" that America had, it could sustain its own internal economy without being as vulnerable, theoretically, to fluctuations in the global economy.

Really, the resources and purchasing power are both necessary to achieve what Germany wanted. You need the resources, something to make them into, and someone to sell them to. Germany had a fair amount of the first (though not enough to be a global power), lots of the second (but not on an American scale), and not much of the third. If you have all three of those things then you can, in theory, be a force of stability and global power without relying on anyone else.

 

[Grandpa Maur]

Yes, it seems we are actually thinking the same thing. I'd only add that someone to sell to doesn't even have to be civilian population - it can be the state (but this impression of mine might be artifact of how Nazis acted in times of wartime economy).

And that the self-suffiecency was a pipe dream and not even USA, or, USSR, were completely self-sufficent (though i guess close enough to satisfy Hitler dreams of German power)

 

[Eusebio]

And that the self-suffiecency was a pipe dream and not even USA, or, USSR, were completely self-sufficent (though i guess close enough to satisfy Hitler dreams of German power)

I think the point here is that autarky was fundamentally necessary in the Nazis' racialist Manichean worldview where peaceful cooperation was impossible and the German nation had to either dominate the peoples of Europe or be destroyed by its racial enemies in turn.

 

[ShotgunSpam55555]

Like Germany reoccupied the Rhineland, what if it occupied it's earlier territories given to Poland, and liberated the rest of the nation? This might have changed the course of events on the globe. I wonder how HOI4 would have played if this had been considered as a possible scenario?

Although an interesting and 'better' scenario, Hitler surely wouldn't resist the temptation to annex more of Poland, or rather "liberate." He knew he could easily overrun Poland. However, lets say the non-aggression pact between Russia and Germany hadn't been signed, Hitler may have just "liberated" Danzig, not the rest of Poland for fear of war with Russia.

 

[Vlad123]

I remember two thing i have read in English book 1) The BRITISH WANT THE PACE!(The poland never exist and the franch was collapse in 40 days)
2) The first nation can bomb the other are the British on the German when Germany offer the peace...the British minister ( not remember the name) say to churchill "you are MAD! This prevent hitler to ask them the peace and they bomb London" Remember, the hystory are writed by the winners. And when i was speaked by friends they say "The WW2 was a succession war for the British control of the economy"...and Roosvelt know this, they selled useless ship to UK at high price, and UK has sold out, company like the Viscose company with the value $ 140 million, no debt and 40 million government bond . Sold to the House of Morgan for $ 37 million. And this are only a exemple...the USA boungth the british empire for a piece of bread!

 

[kettyo]

I remember two thing i have read in English book 1) The BRITISH WANT THE PACE!(The poland never exist and the franch was collapse in 40 days)
2) The first nation can bomb the other are the British on the German when Germany offer the peace...the British minister ( not remember the name) say to churchill "you are MAD! This prevent hitler to ask them the peace and they bomb London" Remember, the hystory are writed by the winners. And when i was speaked by friends they say "The WW2 was a succession war for the British control of the economy"...and Roosvelt know this, they selled useless ship to UK at high price, and UK has sold out, company like the Viscose company with the value $ 140 million, no debt and 40 million government bond . Sold to the House of Morgan for $ 37 million. And this are only a exemple...the USA boungth the british empire for a piece of bread!

I'm not sure if that was really forseen and actually aimed for but it's a matter of fact that the end of WW2 has seen the USA and USSR emerge as world leading superpowers instead of the UK and France.

 

[Vlad123]

I'm not sure if that was really forseen and actually aimed for but it's a matter of fact that the end of WW2 has seen the USA and USSR emerge as world leading superpowers instead of the UK and France.

I think the major power (or better the leader of the major power) know this thing " who win the war with less loss become the leading super power"

 

[kettyo]

I think the major power (or better the leader of the major power) know this thing " who win the war with less loss become the leading super power"

This isn't really valid though as the USSR suffered an insane amount of losses in manpower, infrastructure, etc.

 

[Andre Bolkonsky]

I remember two thing i have read in English book 1) The BRITISH WANT THE PACE!(The poland never exist and the franch was collapse in 40 days)
2) The first nation can bomb the other are the British on the German when Germany offer the peace...the British minister ( not remember the name) say to churchill "you are MAD! This prevent hitler to ask them the peace and they bomb London" Remember, the hystory are writed by the winners. And when i was speaked by friends they say "The WW2 was a succession war for the British control of the economy"...and Roosvelt know this, they selled useless ship to UK at high price, and UK has sold out, company like the Viscose company with the value $ 140 million, no debt and 40 million government bond . Sold to the House of Morgan for $ 37 million. And this are only a exemple...the USA boungth the british empire for a piece of bread!

Uh, what?

You fail to explain how UK got Germany to do all those DOWs for them over a span of several years.