What if Czechoslovakia hadn't been abandoned in 1938?

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Grandpa Maur

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Seems like a total failure to me. Poland chose neither and ended up being invaded by both, had 15% of its population killed and was turned into a Russian puppet for 50 years anyway. If that was the result of a realistic foreign policy, I shudder to think what an unrealistic one would have precipitated...
Siding with Germany - the above happens anyway, plus Poland is in the camp of the defeated Axis and likely gets smaller. And the war is longer, so even more people in Poland get killed.
Siding with Soviets in 1938-39 means it is likely, at this early historical point without any constraints for SU that doesnt have to manage a whole load of puppets, Poland ends up as 17th republic.

That the history was rather horrific doesnt mean it couldnt be worse.

German third column would have been significant in some areas
Fifth /nitpick.
 

Semper Victor

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Without an Anglo-French thrust into western Germany, Czechoslovakia would have been gobbled up in weeks as Poland was a year later; despite its army and the border fortifications, Czechoslovakia was in a hopeless strategical positions: landlocked, surrounded by German territory on three sides (after the Anschluss), separated from its allies by the land mass of the German Reich and with important "fifth columns" inside the country, in the form of German nationalists and Slovakian fascists. The only real help could have come from the USSR, but given that Czechoslovakia had no direct land border with it and neither the Rumanians nor the Poles (in theory, both allies of France, like Czechoslovakia) would have allowed Red Army forces to cross their territories, there was no real hope for help from that quarter either.

The French, on their part, were firmly commited since 1936 to a 100% defensive posture in front of Germany until Britain and the Commonwealth mobilized their forces and sent them in significant numbers to the continent; it was the policy they followed in 1939-40, and the same that they would have followed in 1938. Just before Daladier went to the Munich conference, the head of the French Air Force general Vuillemin told him bluntly that before making any decision in Munich, he should remember that France lacked any real air force capability in front of the mighty and revamped Luftwaffe; and other French generals (both in the army and air force) shared the same opinion.
 

PanzerMan7

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Quite simple. The Czechs would've fought hard. They weren't strong enough to stop the Wehrmacht of course, but they were strong enough to bloody its nose. The Poles were much more effective than history tells us, I might add, because the Soviet invasion is what brought the, ahem, hammer down. They would've lost either way, of course, but they did a much bigger number on the Wehrmacht than we often admit (25% of the Luftwaffe destroyed). The Czech army was smaller but still comparable, in well established positions, with plans running back to the 1920s laid out. The Polish deployment was rather shabby, being too close to the border in open country and without sufficient mobile reserves or complete mobilization. I think we can expect around 5 weeks, like in Poland, to take out the Czechs.

The question then is is the Generals plot successful? If the Wehrmacht got bogged down, almost certainly I think. But a properly planned Fall Gruen that takes down the Czechs quick would've been a miniature battle of france moment, where Hitler is seen as a genius and the Wehrmacht unstoppable. But the 1938 Wehr was not the 1940 Wehr and afaik, the Luftwaffe was still pretty weak.

The problem here is that the Allies are rather useless. IF they ramp up mobilization and they attack, they can do wonders but clearly they were too weak mentally. Gamelin would've made a mess out of the invasion too. The Allies still had a lot of lessons in warfare to be learned, so probably the 38 Wehrmacht could hold the border if it defeated the Czechs.

There are other wild cards too, such as the Poles. These need to be discussed.

But let's get real guys.
 

George Parr

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They would've lost either way, of course, but they did a much bigger number on the Wehrmacht than we often admit (25% of the Luftwaffe destroyed).

Not even close, the number is less than 1/6th of the Luftwaffe forces involved, which was less than half of the entire Luftwaffe, so you are down to about 7%.
Even the most outlandish claims back from 1939, made by the New York Times, based on Polish propaganda reports had Germany lose 25% of the forces involved, not the entire Luftwaffe. And those reports were utter rubbish. Obviously every country used both propaganda reports to tell how awesome they were and how badly the enemy suffered, and the real reports which tell the true loss numbers; which you will only ever hear about when one side loses, the reports fall into enemy hands and scientists can take a look at them, or when a very very long time has passed.

German losses against Poland were indeed not entirely out of the line with the losses experienced in the West. For Poland, the quick loss is just the nature of being surprised by Blitzkrieg and not being able to react quickly enough. There is little you can do when lines fall apart and small groups get surrounded. You lose because the army can't work as one unit anymore, not because the losses are so horrendous.


I don't think the plot against Hitler was supposed to happen if the Wehrmacht got bogged down, that would have been too late. It was supposed to happen if Hitler would order case green to be enacted, which didn't happen because of the Treaty of Munich.
I really doubt that WW2 would have been in any way similar to what actually happened if this situation had indeed turned into a war. Regardless of whether the Allies go on an offensive, the Wehrmacht wasn't nearly as developed as it was in late 1939, and even then, case white prevented pretty much every further offensive action for the next half year, as the supplies were depleted. It was pure luck that the Allies wanted to sit around until next spring.
 

pithorr

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As I wrote in few other threads the best (and only) solution would be military cooperation between Poland and Czechoslovakia. Both countries together would have potential to sustain German assault much longer than any of them alone, especially bearing in mind their much better strategic position when combined. Maybe in such case the Germans would had never decide even to begin the WW2, having also France allied with such real Little Entente at their back.
 

General Guisan

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As I wrote in few other threads the best (and only) solution would be military cooperation between Poland and Czechoslovakia. Both countries together would have potential to sustain German assault much longer than any of them alone, especially bearing in mind their much better strategic position when combined. Maybe in such case the Germans would had never decide even to begin the WW2, having also France allied with such real Little Entente at their back.

Reminds me of a AoD (Arsenal of Democracy, HoI2 mod) game where we played a multiplayer game as Poland and Czechoslovakia. We did exactly this, and actually managed to hold out the Germans to some degree. Game went massively ahistoric after a while, and Polish troops were suddenly defending the oil fields of Ploesti while German Panzer fought it off against Russian tanks near Warsaw, but it was quite an even fight, which eventually we managed to win (albeit, as said, many things went totally ahistoric)

But then, in real life, Poland didn't wanted to save the Czech's, and once Sudetenland got integrated into the 3rd Reich, it was game over anyway.
 

Watazka G

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Siding with Germany - the above happens anyway, plus Poland is in the camp of the defeated Axis and likely gets smaller. And the war is longer, so even more people in Poland get killed.
Siding with Soviets in 1938-39 means it is likely, at this early historical point without any constraints for SU that doesnt have to manage a whole load of puppets, Poland ends up as 17th republic.
Except Poland avoids being under occupation for at least 4 out of 5 years of the war and in the best case scenario Polish supports allows Germany to defend the eastern front long enough for Western allies to capture Berlin.
There were so many very very close scenarios during WW2 it's impossibile to predict anything really.
 

pithorr

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But then, in real life, Poland didn't wanted to save the Czech's, and once Sudetenland got integrated into the 3rd Reich, it was game over anyway.

TBH, the Czechs fared pretty well without "Polish help". Unlike Poland bleeding in the pointless fight and devastated by hostilities and the severe occupation, they survived the WW2 in the very good condition. What would be hardly possible if they decided to fight like stupid Poles.
 

darthfanta

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Czechoslovakia had a strong line of fortifications along their border with Germany.
Then Germany annexed Austria. Oops.


Czechoslovakia had a strong army for its size, but it was still outmatched by the German army. France was in disarray. The USSR was in the middle of the purges, and would have to go through Poland to even reach the front lines; something to which the Poles would object forcefully. Britain in 1938 had no army and barely had an air force.

As for the coup by German generals against Hitler: I know that something of the sort was being planned, but I'm not sure how serious it was. I find it hard to believe that traditional Prussian generals would turn on their commander-in-chief right at the start of a war against France and Russia.
They refused to suppress revolts on behalf of their Commander in Chief in 1918....nor were they willing to take the blame of defeat for their CiC even though they were the ones commanding the war, not their nominal CiC.
 

Grosshaus

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Czechs fighting it out would have shown everybody how Germany fights and allow them to prepare better. Surely Czechoslovakia would have been defeated and rather quickly, but Poland could have survived a bit longer. They would have known the tactics Germany is to use and could have either focused on a more efficient mobile reserve or improved autonomy of small units. Preferably both.

German losses against Czechoslovakia wouldn't have been that massive, but potentially much enough to postpone the Polish invasion. Instead of happening in autumn, they could start Polish invasion in spring 1940. That invasion is likely to have been a bit more costly for Germany than in reality, but again something they can well manage. Looking back still well enough time to defeat France during summer of 1940, but potentially German leadership wouldn't have been certain enough of that to give it a go. At least no time or resources for at least Norwegian, but also Danish campaign. Potentially French or at least British preparations would have been improved. Britain for having had more time to ramp-up production, training and deployments to France while France to have an opportunity to change doctrines. Whether they would have done that is a big question mark of course. Eventually Germany would have had a much harder time against France with a realistic option of not finishing her up until winter 1940/1941 in a prolonged costly campaign.s
 

jamhaw

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Except Poland avoids being under occupation for at least 4 out of 5 years of the war and in the best case scenario Polish supports allows Germany to defend the eastern front long enough for Western allies to capture Berlin.
There were so many very very close scenarios during WW2 it's impossibile to predict anything really.

Poland would spend most of the war as the primary battleground of the eastern front, probably far worse than a mere occupation. After the war it would be distinctly possible that it would be wiped off the map by the victorious Soviets, as their share of the spoils. At minimum a puppet government every bit as repressive as OTL but probably without much (if any) gains at German expense to make up for the Soviet annexations. After all the Soviets have no wish to reward a German ally. If they had ended up as a member of the Allies (something I find unlikely) the best they can hope for is OTL, although probably is somewhat worse shape after the fifth battle of Warsaw...
 

trybald

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It's been done ad nauseam. Poland would in no way contribute positively to the overall Axis war effort in the East simply because of transportation bottlenecks. Even without Polish troops on the front, Germany was unable to adequate supply her armies even though supplies were produced in sufficient quantity and were kept on stock. It was the delivery that was a nightmare of impossibility. The Axis were at the maximum of their fighting capacity and no additional millions of cannon fodder would change that.

USSR would win regardless of Polish involvement. In such event, Poland would be the biggest territorial loser of the war, with Polish territories being annexed by the victorious Soviets. Czechs (who issued claims to Silesia well into 1950s) would also jump on the bandwagon and demand a slice of Poland for themselves. As such, Poland would emerge as a tiny rump state, devastated by the war and on top of that strictly controlled by the USSR.