What if... American Civil war reversed

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Imagine some congress decision upsets Northern States a lot and causes them to create a confederation (sounds familiar? well why not. Should not be too hard to imaginge some cause of war) South wants to save the union. Now what happens? A rebellion right before the canadian border, the south not able to fight a long war because of their limited industry. On the other hand no reason for Britain not to engage in slicing their former colony into two parts which could maybe played against each other with low cost. On the other hand no need to engage since the northern industry doesn't produce much Europe would need.

What do you guys think would such a war look like?

 

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Harry Turtledove wrote a series of books on this. Here is a link to a review of one: http://www.futurefiction.com/civil_war.htm#how few

 

[Agelastus]

Although they're not exactly your scenario, they are quite good.

Also very depressing-WWI is even worse than on our world, lasting about a year longer. And the Entente loses! At least Turtledove allows Britain to be the last to throw in the towel, in the face of starvation. I'm really looking forward to the continuation in the "American Empire" series, partly 'cause I suspect he's setting up a WWII where everybody are the villains!

 

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Hmmmm .... I seem to remember some mention of the New England states threatening secession from the US during the early 1800s. Maybe 1820s. Maybe around the time of the War of 1812. There was some flap about trading and restrictions and whatnot. I do not know the specifics. Or if I read accurate material.

What if the Northern Secession scenario happened then? Would Connecticut, Rhode Island, Massachusettes, New Hampshire, and Maine be able to hold off the other states? Would they petition to join Canada? Would Britain support them? [Actually, unless New York (and Vermont) joined, or Britain jumped in, the edge has to stay with the "rump" US].

 

[Dark Knight]

The New England states (which by that point included Vermont) threatened to secede from the Union during the Anglo-American War of 1812. This shows just how little the war had to do with supposed British interference with American trade (which affected New England more than the rest of the country) and how much it was caused by land hunger (which was predominant in the Southern and Western states). The New Englanders had been opposed to various laws restricting US laws restricting foreign trade passed before the war and weren't terribly happy at having their trade interdicted by Britain during the war. New England was also the last bastion of Federalist support at a time when the Democratic-Republican party had become dominant in the rest of the country. However, by the time political leaders in New England actually began to consider secession the war ended. Had it continued, there was a real possibility of the New England states seceding. If this had happened, I doubt there would have been enough willpower in the rest of the country to support a war to force New England back into the Union, especially after three unsuccessful years of war against Canada and Britain.

 

[Misha]

Drak Knight has it right. Not much to add except that the secessionist New Englanders met together in Hartford in a convocation historians call the Hartford Convention. Nothing came of it, which was a good thing. It is hard to imagine how the US could have survived a major secession crisis when the nation wasn't even 40 years old yet.

 

[Chengar Qordath]

The timing of the Hartford convention was also a factor that limited the threat posed by it. IIRC, it happened shortly before the war ended, so the New England states might well have rejoined in a few months anyway.

There was also another near seccession in Jackson's presidency, IIRC.

 

[Dark Knight]

There was a confrontation during Jackson's presidency over whether states had the right to "nullify" federal law and it almost turned violent, but as far as I know South Carolina was never actually considering secession during it.

 

[grumbler]

The Hartford Convention soundly rejected the idea of secession, but it is not too hard to imagine that, with a few changes in events, the NE states might have seriously considered seccession.

Had this occurred, i don't think they would have rejoined the US without some guarantees of states' powers such as they suggested in their proposed amendments (which would have required a 2/3 vote in Congress before trade embargoes, wars, and the like could be declared.

On the other hand, I don't think that the other states would have waged war to regain the NE states. In fact, many leaders in the South would have rejoiced at their departure, as it would have shifted power more firmly into Southern hands.

It is interesting to note that impressment was not as big an issue in NE as elsewhere, since it was mostly foreign-born US citizens and those not citizens at all who were being impressed, and the shipowners of the area valued their trade far more than their pride.

 

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Originally posted by Agelastus
Although they're not exactly your scenario, they are quite good.

Also very depressing-WWI is even worse than on our world, lasting about a year longer. And the Entente loses! At least Turtledove allows Britain to be the last to throw in the towel, in the face of starvation. I'm really looking forward to the continuation in the "American Empire" series, partly 'cause I suspect he's setting up a WWII where everybody are the villains!

His World War II includes an invasion from space. It hits around 1942, while the German's are at their height, and humanity stops fighting each other to hold back the aliens. The series is called "Colonization"

 

[Agelastus]

Originally posted by von Wittenburg
His World War II includes an invasion from space. It hits around 1942, while the German's are at their height, and humanity stops fighting each other to hold back the aliens. The series is called "Colonization"

I have read them von Wittenburg (it's the "Worldwar" series, by the way-Colonisation is set twenty years later) but he's setting the stage for another alternate WWII in the new "American Empire" books. And it will not be a pleasant one (since we have a Hitler-type rising in the Confederacy, among other things.)

 

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Originally posted by Agelastus


I have read them von Wittenburg (it's the "Worldwar" series, by the way-Colonisation is set twenty years later) but he's setting the stage for another alternate WWII in the new "American Empire" books. And it will not be a pleasant one (since we have a Hitler-type rising in the Confederacy, among other things.)

Sorry, your right. Worldwar was the alternate WWII. Colonization was when the second alien fleet came in the 60s. I didn't know about the new series - I'll have to get to the book store.

 

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Yes i just finished reading the newest Harry Turtledove book American empire:blood and iron. Not to give to much of the plot away,but Jake Fetherstone is somewhat turing to be like Hitler with his Freedom Party. Its a great book and i cant wait for next year for the Center Cant Hold!

 

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Originally posted by Liberti4
Yes i just finished reading the newest Harry Turtledove book American empire:blood and iron. Not to give to much of the plot away,but Jake Fetherstone is somewhat turing to be like Hitler with his Freedom Party. Its a great book and i cant wait for next year for the Center Cant Hold!

Heheheh. Yes, it is very interesting reading! The parts with Custer in them have to be by far the most enjoyable parts of this series though, at least once you get beyond "How Few Remain" (which is the pre-quel to the "Great War" series and in which Custer is nowhere near as hilarious as in the other books ).

One thing that sort of annoys me about this series is that they don't lend more than a half-cent to the notion of what is going on in Europe during all of this. We learn a snippet here and there, but I'd be interested in knowing more than just "The French lost and the Germans are running roughshod over them"...

 

[Agelastus]

Originally posted by Heliumgod
One thing that sort of annoys me about this series is that they don't lend more than a half-cent to the notion of what is going on in Europe during all of this. We learn a snippet here and there, but I'd be interested in knowing more than just "The French lost and the Germans are running roughshod over them"...

That's what I thought to (admittedly I am British!) Normally Turtledove's style feels more natural, no great chunks of expositionary material, but this is a subject that unfortunately literally cries out for it.

I can't even remember if he mentioned how the Ulster situation turned out, even in passing. The peace terms offered the British Empire would be interesting as well, as would any information about what's happening politically within said Empire.

It also seems possible that Russia's being run by a bunch of Fascists, if I interpreted one phrase correctly?

 

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Yeah they dont give to much information about the world outside of North America. About the peace with the England,all they said is the empire had to give up claims to Canada and the Sandwich Islands. Also recognize the Republic of Quebec and Ireland as independent nations.

 

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Originally posted by Agelastus


That's what I thought to (admittedly I am British!) Normally Turtledove's style feels more natural, no great chunks of expositionary material, but this is a subject that unfortunately literally cries out for it.

I can't even remember if he mentioned how the Ulster situation turned out, even in passing. The peace terms offered the British Empire would be interesting as well, as would any information about what's happening politically within said Empire.

It also seems possible that Russia's being run by a bunch of Fascists, if I interpreted one phrase correctly?

Hmm.. I do not remember the phrasing, but I do remember that they did not describe what the outcome was in Ulster. Very annoying.

And I agree -- I would be more than happy to put up with a character spouting an awkwardly placed paragraph or two that really lets the reader know what is going on in the world.

 

[TheDS]

Hey,

Somebody DID write a story about the North seceding from the South. PROBABLY it was Harry Turtledove, but I don't know for sure. Unfortunately, I never got to read it, but I remember hearing about it once.

Thanks for spoiling the end of Walk in Hell for me. But I'm glad to know there's going to be another couple books in the series. The thing I like best about this is that it's based on a historically plausible premise, and the characters act much like people in that period. He also doesn't delve too much into people who were famous in OUR history. Who says George Bush (Sr) would even be born? (He was a fighter pilot in WW2, btw.)

 

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I have read Blood and Iron, the newest addition to Turtledove's series, and it was very interesting. The book spans the years 1919 to 1927 in the aftermath of the Great War.

As those who read the series probably know, the US and Germany end up winning the Great War in 1917 in Turtledove's alternate history. The Confederacy surrenders as Yankee "barrells" (tanks) slam through the South, and Canada follows soon after. The French Mutinies are far more devastating in this world, with the French ending up surrendering soon after the Russian Revolution. England then ends up surrendering as the US navy finally closes the sea gate between Canada and Britain, and the High Seas FLeet is finally able to break out of the North Sea soon after the fall of France.

The US and Germany end up solving the "Irish question" for Britain. Britain is forced to give up all of Canada to the US, and Quebec and Ireland are freed as independent republics. A rebellion breaks out in Northern Ireland as the Protestant rebels refuse to unite with the rest of Ireland. Defeated Britain is forced to stand by while Irish troops quell the rebellion with support from the US and German navies.

Meanwhile, in the defeated and embittered Confederacy, Jake Featherson spreads his message of hate and revenge through the new fascist Freedom Party.

The victorious US meanwhile enjoys new hope and prosperity, but continued labor strife results in Socialist Upton Sinclair being elected President in 1920.

Also, the US and Confederacy both begin testing new battle tactics by supporting the various conflicts in Latin America, such as a civil war in Mexico, where Confederate supported government forces fight US - backed rebels.

 

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Originally posted by TheDS
Hey,

Somebody DID write a story about the North seceding from the South. PROBABLY it was Harry Turtledove, but I don't know for sure. Unfortunately, I never got to read it, but I remember hearing about it once.

Thanks for spoiling the end of Walk in Hell for me. But I'm glad to know there's going to be another couple books in the series. The thing I like best about this is that it's based on a historically plausible premise, and the characters act much like people in that period. He also doesn't delve too much into people who were famous in OUR history. Who says George Bush (Sr) would even be born? (He was a fighter pilot in WW2, btw.)

Sincere apologies for any revelations regarding Turtledove's stories... should have included a spoiler warning!!