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Ferdinand_Bardamu

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Exploration is good for establishing new fronts that are easier to expand into. The +50% colonial range is also functionally +50% coring range, and the +! colonist essentially acts as a CB generator by allowing you to flash a colony --> claim a province --> revoke colony --> declare war. This makes it the best idea group for AE control in the game by far. A nation like Genoa can try bashing into the HRE and France early on, OR it can spend a few decades slingshotting around Africa to absorb the gold mines of Kilwa, and attack Indonesia with it's 1000 dev that's split between 4 religion groups.
Hi Reman,

I am a huge fan of your work.

I have to respectfully disagree here.

In your case of Genoa, it should be well possible to form Italy pre-1600 potentially cycling through Sardinia-Piedmont if one switches to a monarchy. With the 5% Admin Efficiency from Sardinia-Piedmont, Italian CCR (potentially Roman 5% Admin Efficiency too eventually) it should be more than possible to World Conquest for any intermediate and above player. You don't need to take a whole idea group for wrong culture, wrong religion provinces in Africa early for that.

Furthermore, whilst not as powerful as Aragon or Venice, Genoa is still in the position to annex + release Byzantium, kill the Ottomans early and Deus Vult east through the Levant and Persia into India acquiring trade companies in some very high production value provinces along the way.

I don't think Exploration is worth an entire idea set in this regard. I can't imagine it being more important than Diplomatic or Influence, which both have their own AE reduction modifiers (either Improve Relations via Diplomatic or easier annexation of vassals allowing you to reconquest more).

I completely understand why some people like Exploration, but in any wide game I struggle to see the justification of picking it over Diplomatic/Influence and indeed Admin/Religious/Humanist or Offensive ideas.

Just my opinion of course :)
 
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Nostalgium

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Quality bonuses may seem smaller but they are completely free. Bigger army on the other hand has a cost.
Bigger army has a cost; deeper reinforcement pool does not. Considering 50% MP is also 50% MP per month by proxy, it allows you to persecute wars for longer in the early-game without relying on mercs, and gets you to that magic point where you gain, rather than lose MP even when waging war much faster. This lets you snowball faster even if you don't expand the size of your army, but it also lets you do that if you like. Further, Manpower is way more valuable than money in this game, even in the late-game when both are effectively monopoly currency that has no meaning except "number go up".
 
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Stratagyfan101

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Bigger army has a cost; deeper reinforcement pool does not. Considering 50% MP is also 50% MP per month by proxy, it allows you to persecute wars for longer in the early-game without relying on mercs, and gets you to that magic point where you gain, rather than lose MP even when waging war much faster. This lets you snowball faster even if you don't expand the size of your army, but it also lets you do that if you like. Further, Manpower is way more valuable than money in this game, even in the late-game when both are effectively monopoly currency that has no meaning except "number go up".
Yeah, but space marines mean I'm not using manpower and thus have more manpower at the end of my wars. Quantity ideas early on, in my experience, just means I'm using 50% more manpower per battle, and that I'm less likely to win the battle than with some other idea group. Offensive, quality and defensive ideas (specifically the moral boost) actually help me to win the battle. The dice are cruel and I need every advantage I can get to win a battle and hopefully win a siege race with my 6 month head start.

My whole strategy is built around the assumption that the dice hate me and I need to do everything in my power to mitigate the dice. Having more men doesn't help me beat the dice.
 

Nostalgium

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My whole strategy is built around the assumption that the dice hate me and I need to do everything in my power to mitigate the dice. Having more men doesn't help me beat the dice.
One thing I learned during my many years of 40K is that the Emperor Protects, and if you don't roll that 5+, you better have three more Guardsmen ready to take out whatever xeno monster you made them charge. :p

Difference in approach, I guess. I'll concede that I'd personally much rather be a soldier in your army than mine.
 

Stratagyfan101

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One thing I learned during my many years of 40K is that the Emperor Protects, and if you don't roll that 5+, you better have three more Guardsmen ready to take out whatever xeno monster you made them charge. :p

Difference in approach, I guess. I'll concede that I'd personally much rather be a soldier in your army than mine.
Most recent attempt at Golden Horde KHAAAAN achievement goes like this. I own Ryazan, Vladirmir, Suzdal, Yaroslavl, Moscow and all of Tver's starting provinces. In order to do that I needed to have mil tech 4 before them. I attack Muscovy again. I have 30k men, half cav. I have 3.93 morale to their 3.67, 107 discipline to their 100, and all battles have been exclusively on steppe terrain. we have the same tech and I had one more shock pip than them. I lost every battle when our numbers were near equal. Normally I try to pick off their armies but in this war the Muscovy AI accidentally kept its armies near each other preventing me from stacking wiping them in a 3-1 battle.

The best explanation is that each and every one of my shock rolls was trash. But hey, I got the occasional 7 in the fire phase. That's like 2 dead Russians and .01 morale right? This is why I like space marines. If my rolls suck, I can atleast control my retreat once I'm allowed to retreat with minimal losses. With this, 1/3 of my army is dead before I can retreat, repeat ad nauseum. And when the game decides to give me a 7 on the fifth roll of the battle I not only haven't already lost the battle, I can actually utilize that 7 to win the battle.
This is a major exaggeration. There are areas of the world where navies are pretty essential, for example Indonesia. Outside of that, controlling the sea is super useful even though it's not strictly necessary. Ships are many times faster, especially in the Mediterranean. There is a huge strategic and tactical cost to moving your armies long distances over land if you're in a region with useful sea access. Blockades don't do a ton economically but they do make a significant difference in sieges. Strait crossings are situational but very powerful when used.

Sure, there are some niche scenarios where a combat navies matter due to islands. Point being, naval superiority rarely is a major asset. Yes, if I'm the one on the offensive it can be an asset to move troops quicker, but that's about it. Blocking Gibraltar or the Dardanelles isn't all that useful anymore because it is almost assured that whomever you are fighting is going to be able to go around the black sea. I've literally seen Spain and France walk around the entire Mediterranean to attack me in North Africa when I tried to utilize my naval supremacy to steal some islands or it might have even been a trade war to steal some ducats. I've had naval superiority as Mali trying to defend my coasts and make some colonies, but that didn't stop France from marching 50k men through the Sahara. Now you might ask, was I blocking Gibraltar that time? No, because I shouldn't have to blockade Gibraltar to stop 50k 16th century Frenchmen from marching though Spain, across Gibraltar, over the Atlas mountains and through the Sahara desert. I've been playing on the Pontic Steppe lately. Guess what happens when you attack Genoa? If their in the Empire, half of Italy and Germany comes storming across the Hungary, Poland and Lithuanian onto the steppe. So much for my investment into galleys. If they aren't into the Empire, then its only half of Italy. If you are playing in the Baltics, controlling the straights around Sjaelland is pointless. The whole of Scandinavia will empty out from Finland. Even if you manage to block Aland. You want to push Ethiopia out of Arabia? Well, good luck because they're going to walk up the Red Sea coast on the Egyptian side, and down the Red Sea Coast on the Arabian side. Navies are largely a minor strategic asset for the purpose of siege racing, and the ducats put into maintaining heavy ships are better spent on armies because the entire enemy army is going to be marching to your country whether you've a fleet or not. Oh, and your reward for beating these adventurers is that they get to safely retreat back to their homes only to make the trek again.

There is a similar case to be made with forts. Unless you have a string of forts going between two pieces of impassible terrain, or have completely encircled your country in forts, the AI is going to go around those forts, even if it has to march from Germany, over the Dardanelle, and around the Caspian sea to do it.
 
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iIf you have naval supremacy and Spain or France are marching around the Med to get your Moroccan lands, why are you not landing an army in their homeland when they are around Constantinople?

If the AI is doing stupid long marches through neutral territory to work around your naval supremacy, you should be using your navies for the mobility advantage they offer: hit them while their armies are stranded in no man’s land.
 
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MatthewP

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iIf you have naval supremacy and Spain or France are marching around the Med to get your Moroccan lands, why are you not landing an army in their homeland when they are around Constantinople?

If the AI is doing stupid long marches through neutral territory to work around your naval supremacy, you should be using your navies for the mobility advantage they offer: hit them while their armies are stranded in no man’s land.
Exactly. Yes, if you’re outnumbered 5:1, naval supremacy isn’t going to make up that difference in most cases. But that’s a long way from saying it’s useless. It just takes a little creativity rather than being an “I’m invincible” button.
 
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Stratagyfan101

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iIf you have naval supremacy and Spain or France are marching around the Med to get your Moroccan lands, why are you not landing an army in their homeland when they are around Constantinople?

If the AI is doing stupid long marches through neutral territory to work around your naval supremacy, you should be using your navies for the mobility advantage they offer: hit them while their armies are stranded in no man’s land.
One, I shouldn't have to. This was a naval war. Secondly, sure I could try that, but to what effect? To try and force a white peace after the entirety of my home territory is sieged?

Anyhow, I'd have been better off investing in better ideas to have a stronger army regardless. The point is that unless you are on an island, or in the opposite hemisphere, it makes more sense to go with land ideas because every war will be a land war if there is a potential land route, regardless of how unreasonable it is.
 
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Uskayaw

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For Maritime ideas, the recent 1.33 beta changes gave it 25% ship trade power propagation among other things, but this is such a small and insignificant modifier that I'm seriously wondering whether the devs mistook ship trade power for ship trade power propagation.
You are missing the point of maritime ideas. They aren't for trading, they are for piracy. Ship power propagation propagates the piratical trade power upstream.
 
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Jiben

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You are missing the point of maritime ideas. They aren't for trading, they are for piracy. Ship power propagation propagates the piratical trade power upstream.
In addition to that i see maritime as the "quantity" of naval ideas.

+50% naval forcelimit, +50% sailors, -10% ship costs are all solid and low key better than naval ideas assuming you have the economy to use that+50% forcelimit.
 
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necro84

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You definitely should never keep Explo long-term unless you're doing a deliberately suboptimal RP run. The standard operating procedure is to take the first 3, maybe 4 ideas in Explo to get to where you need to go, then you dump the idea group for something better since you'll keep the main benefits for the rest of the game regardless. This is part of why Explo is so powerful: it doesn't monopolize an idea slot forever, just for a few decades.
I completly agree with this but using this logic religious should be the same tier as explo. You need to take more ideas for CB but keep it longer. You use explo for 60-80 years and you can use religious for 200 years
 
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adin85

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I watched some youtube videos and I saw that each 100k force limit gives 1 extra free general. Quantity and Offensive have hidden bonus. Int his case I would buff Innovation and Aristrocratic, because both of them give 1 general spot.
 
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I watched some youtube videos and I saw that each 100k force limit gives 1 extra free general. Quantity and Offensive have hidden bonus. Int his case I would buff Innovation and Aristrocratic, because both of them give 1 general spot.
I don’t think that is correct, unless it was a change in the beta. Nothing in the wiki supports this.

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klingonadmiral

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The 50% FL boost is enormous. I wouldn't be opposed to lowering it to +33%. Maybe pairing it with a manpower drop to +33% and lowering aristocratic's manpower boost to +20%?

I feel like there needs to be some other limit to maximum army size rather than just force limit.

Ottoman ideas + full quantity + full offensive can easily raise 500 regiments from the Balkans and Anatolia alone.
 

adin85

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I barely understand English. I have no idea what is being said in the video. Is it Polish? Does it have something to do with the new patch?
Yes, It saying that bigger Land Force Limit and Naval Force Limit give somehow more Leader upkeep. It's patch 1.33 or more advance beta version.
 
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klingonadmiral

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In your case of Genoa, it should be well possible to form Italy pre-1600 potentially cycling through Sardinia-Piedmont if one switches to a monarchy. With the 5% Admin Efficiency from Sardinia-Piedmont, Italian CCR (potentially Roman 5% Admin Efficiency too eventually) it should be more than possible to World Conquest for any intermediate and above player. You don't need to take a whole idea group for wrong culture, wrong religion provinces in Africa early for that.

The best employers of exploration are in my opinion the countries straddling the coast of the Indian ocean, foremost among them the powers of southern India. The earlier you get into the spice islands the better.
 

TheMeInTeam

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Yeah, but space marines mean I'm not using manpower and thus have more manpower at the end of my wars. Quantity ideas early on, in my experience, just means I'm using 50% more manpower per battle

Maybe AI logic rework will change this, but right now most wars are not won by grinding out a bunch of battles. Having more bodies doing sieges safely is more attractive.

Whether any military group is worth before luxury pick timeframe is debatable, but I would expect quantity to be one of the better performing military groups in SP if you pick one.

The earlier you get into the spice islands the better.

You can get there w/o exploration, and steal maps to see a good % at tech 6. I guess you're stuck with using subject(s) to cover uncolonized land (or wait and conquer it from Europeans) if you don't pick up a colonist somehow, though.