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ltccone

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I play as Germany most of the time, and I just don't build any of these.

U-boats - They are next to useless now; will try them again in MtG
Cruisers - I just build DDs and BBs
Mech - too expensive, and too slow
MPs and Signals - not worth the research time
Heavy Tanks - too slow; I just upgun medium tanks
SPAA/TD - never seen a need for them
Rocket ART/Mot. Rocket ART - I just concentrate on ART and SPA
AT - I just build tanks; may change in MtG with fuel
AA - I just build planes; may change in MtG with fuel
Heavy FTR - If I need range, I will extended the range of FTR
STR - Just don't need them.

Can someone convince me otherwise? :)
 

Petite

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Ok, my build is near to yours

but test battlecruisers vs BB (oil) and Light Cruisers vs destroyers ( less looses)
 

Star Foth

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I usually use heavy tanks/mech/signals on my heavy divisions that I use to press lines I'm having difficulty on or burst through with sheer hardness/firepower. They usually run spearheaded attacks while everyone else backs them up by securing the lines behind then w/ good defense.
The first signals tech is +20% initiative and the ones further down the line don't add nearly as much as the first so I only grab the first. If using a research slot is what is holding you back the +20% can be a really good way to 1 up your opponents tactic-wise and counter them more often.
 

ltccone

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I usually use heavy tanks/mech/signals on my heavy divisions that I use to press lines I'm having difficulty on or burst through with sheer hardness/firepower. They usually run spearheaded attacks while everyone else backs them up by securing the lines behind then w/ good defense.
The first signals tech is +20% initiative and the ones further down the line don't add nearly as much as the first so I only grab the first. If using a research slot is what is holding you back the +20% can be a really good way to 1 up your opponents tactic-wise and counter them more often.
To me another production line for mechs and heavy tanks just isn't worth it. As for signals I could replace support ARt with it, but then I would have to research it.
 

Hellequin

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I'd say that this probably holds true for single player where the AI struggles to present a competent threat.

But, not building AT is usually a disastrous decision in MP. Likewise when up against competent opponents it's not guaranteed that you'll have Green air. Especially as Germany when trying to fight both the USSR and the allies then AA can do wonders minimizing the debuffs and damage from red air.

Likewise with SPTDs, they can be necessary to get the piercing of your armoured divisions over the line or you're facing a player that has upgraded their armour or focused on heavy tanks.

Vanilla strategic bombers can be very effective if used correctly. They're so effective that it's rare for them not to be banned or nerfed in multiplayer games.
 

ltccone

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I'd say that this probably holds true for single player where the AI struggles to present a competent threat.

But, not building AT is usually a disastrous decision in MP. Likewise when up against competent opponents it's not guaranteed that you'll have Green air. Especially as Germany when trying to fight both the USSR and the allies then AA can do wonders minimizing the debuffs and damage from red air.

Likewise with SPTDs, they can be necessary to get the piercing of your armoured divisions over the line or you're facing a player that has upgraded their armour or focused on heavy tanks.

Vanilla strategic bombers can be very effective if used correctly. They're so effective that it's rare for them not to be banned or nerfed in multiplayer games.
I only play SP with EAI, and while it is much harder than vanilla, there is still no massed armor where I would need AT guns.

As for the AA, I will probably need them with MtG, but not now.
 

MiracleTortoise

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U-boats serve a purpose, albeit not really a meaningful combat one. The advantage of subs isn't any of their combat stats. It's that they're cheap. Build Sub-1s for the cheapest source of naval superiority. Build enough of them, the enemy won't even sink them due to being too intimidated to engage.

Cruisers are more cost effective against mixed surface/sub raiders and can patrol at longer ranges, they're good for controlling trade across oceans, but for Germany, agreed, stick to capital ships or subs.

I'd recommend using the first MP tech on cavalry suppression, as Germany your bottlenecks should be research and manpower, good military police will let you maintain absurd industrial with less manpower investment.

Heavy tanks are for infantry armies. Adding one or two regular heavy tanks to a standard infantry division can let you sub out artillery for a source of breakthrough, hard attack, and armour, upscaling infantry into a more industry intensive but far more flexible force. By no means required, but maybe better than you give it credit for.

I agree with you on signals, they're good, but not good enough to spend a research slot on and rotate out another spp choice for busy divisions.

SPAA/SPTD - I generally agree, these are more niche PvP choices. And I mean niche. You'll rarely lack the piercing with mediums/heavies and support AT.

Rocket Art/Mot Art - This is a superior firepower thing, for mobwarfare, it's a hard pass. Rockets are marginally better than regular art fully teched. Arguably, but the advantage is stacking both in divisions with +50% support SA and 20% global SA from superior firepower.

AT - support AT is useful for making infantry divisions... Y'know, not pointless when armour appears. Skipping it early is fine, but I'm bemused you don't have a use for it against the Soviets or US. I can see how you get away with it in Single Player though.

AA - It's not bad, it works as a stopgap for difficulty maintaining air coverage while pushing in the eastern front, but it doesn't do anything that can't be solved with more heavy fighters.

Heavy Fighters - They're extremely good. They have higher attack and defense than regular fighters, they're not just for range. I find they perform significantly better - also, the air exp that you spend increasing fighter range can be invested in attack or agility for the heavies.

Strat Bombers - I'm inclined to agree. The only place I'd use them as Germany is against the US.
 

CrazyZombie

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AT - support AT is useful for making infantry divisions... Y'know, not pointless when armour appears. Skipping it early is fine, but I'm bemused you don't have a use for it against the Soviets or US. I can see how you get away with it in Single Player though.
From the other side of barricades I must mention that not researching and setting into production AT as Soviet Union would be the worst possible mistake before war with the Reich. Even in SP. Only thing that can save me in such case is early aggression against Iran and Romania - to get their oil. No oil - less planes/tanks/trucks, need to invest time and effort into synthetic resources.

Don't know how it will work in MtG - when the trick would be not to produce all the stuff, but be able to get fuel for it. Time will show. But things definitely should become more interesting.
 

Reman

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I play as Germany most of the time, and I just don't build any of these.

U-boats - They are next to useless now; will try them again in MtG
Cruisers - I just build DDs and BBs
Mech - too expensive, and too slow
MPs and Signals - not worth the research time
Heavy Tanks - too slow; I just upgun medium tanks
SPAA/TD - never seen a need for them
Rocket ART/Mot. Rocket ART - I just concentrate on ART and SPA
AT - I just build tanks; may change in MtG with fuel
AA - I just build planes; may change in MtG with fuel
Heavy FTR - If I need range, I will extended the range of FTR
STR - Just don't need them.

Can someone convince me otherwise? :)
This list is pretty good.

Subs are crap and convoy raiding is pointless.
Cruisers are bad but destroyers are even worse. If you need to kill subs then just build a carrier or two. Don't throw away your dockyards on crappy destroyers.
Mechs aren't worth it until you're awash in IC. I often put them on modern tank templates to boost their stats a bit, because I have enough IC at that point to splurge.
Military police are actually net negative in terms of equipment. Signals is just not worth the research.
Heavy tanks are worthless with their slow speed, high cost, and the fact the AI spams AT on all its divisions.
SPAA can be useful if airport space is limited, e.g. when you're establishing a beachhead in the early days of invading a late-game USA. TDs are worthless.
SPGs > rocket artillery.
AT is very suboptimal compared to tanks/planes.
Towed AA is crap compared to SPAA.
Heavy fighters can be good late-game when airport space becomes a bigger limiting factor than IC.
Strats are net-negative. You blow up the roads your tanks need to blitzkrieg.
 

Meglok

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I play as Germany most of the time, and I just don't build any of these.

U-boats - They are next to useless now; will try them again in MtG
Cruisers - I just build DDs and BBs
Mech - too expensive, and too slow
MPs and Signals - not worth the research time
Heavy Tanks - too slow; I just upgun medium tanks
SPAA/TD - never seen a need for them
Rocket ART/Mot. Rocket ART - I just concentrate on ART and SPA
AT - I just build tanks; may change in MtG with fuel
AA - I just build planes; may change in MtG with fuel
Heavy FTR - If I need range, I will extended the range of FTR
STR - Just don't need them.

Can someone convince me otherwise? :)

Going by vanilla 1.5.4 and just considering SP.

Subs - only as the US vs Japan
CA - only as the US or Japan
CL - always as a major, they are DD killers
Mech - no need in SP
MP - yes as Germany or Italy, no anyone else. They save manpower.
Signals - not worth losing a slot
Heavy Tanks - always as France, depends only who and the slider setting
SpAA -- no, either towed AA on legs units or support AA for mobile units.
Positional AA - as Germany or Italy. Even the ai uses bombers and they are a good habit to build for other game modes.
Heavy Fighters - only as the UK, Germany, Japan, USA, or Russia. France, Italy, and most minors can't afford them. Great range and firepower, helps vs bombers and across water.
Strats - yes. The ability to designate targets makes them useful for any nation. If nothing else they force the ai to move planes home and can chew up s/e fighters. Target airfields with enough planes and the enemy can't fly. Bomb synth factories and bye bye oil and rubber.

Expect a big row about Strats in 1.6. They are going to be too damn necessary for the Allies to ban now that the Axis doesn't need oil to make tanks and planes. Let the Axis make synth factories and silos safe from bomber attack and it will be game over. And all the German players are going to whine like a turbo about being bombed.
 

Alex_brunius

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Subs are crap and convoy raiding is pointless.
Except for when they are not, like you admitted in the last thread we debated the topic. They have many times as high detection values as any other fleet ( if you get doctrines ) and are needed if you want to be able to stop invasions after they have been launched ( which is not a big concern vs the AI, but very much so against human players ).

They can also raid places the AI never bothers to patrol and a single submarine can sink tons of divisions or hundreds of convoys when put in the right place.

Cruisers are bad but destroyers are even worse. If you need to kill subs then just build a carrier or two. Don't throw away your dockyards on crappy destroyers.
If your enemy put small fleets of 1-3 subs per seazone your screwed with the approach of trying to use Carriers alone to kill them. You will never have as many Carriers as you have seazones to protect, and if you split up your Carriers in smaller fleets they will get wrecked by the enemy main fleet. Even if your Carrier fleets can eventually find subs your enemy can build new subs faster than you can find and sink them.

Naturally the AI won't use their subs properly, so you don't have a great need of DDs in singleplayer, but if you play a multiplayer game against someone using submarines properly then trying to fight them with Carriers alone simply won't work. Especially not when your forced to fight subs in range of enemy land based air ( like of the coast of German occupied Norway to protect allied trade or Lend Lease to Soviet ). Putting Carriers there permanently is asking to get them bombed and sunk, while DDs have low enough hitpoints to not trigger massive airstrikes and are fast enough to repair + cheap if you get unlucky and lose them that they can effectively fight the subs there.

Mechs aren't worth it until you're awash in IC. I often put them on modern tank templates to boost their stats a bit, because I have enough IC at that point to splurge.
They are decent at increasing the hardness and armor rating of tank divisions which allow them to take less damage, but I agree they are not cheap. They are super cheap compared to using Fleet Carriers for Anti submarine work though...

Military police are actually net negative in terms of equipment. Signals is just not worth the research..
Signals are awesome if you care about making sure your divisions are not outnumbered 3:1 or worse and as a result get wrecked in combat. They can triple the chance of reserve divisions joining combat. Anyone not going mass assault should consider using them in their quality divisions.

Heavy tanks are worthless with their slow speed, high cost, and the fact the AI spams AT on all its divisions.
SPAA can be useful if airport space is limited, e.g. when you're establishing a beachhead in the early days of invading a late-game USA. TDs are worthless.
The main job of Heavy tanks is wrecking the enemy Medium tank divisions, so against the vanilla AI ( which either don't build Medium tanks or can't use them properly ) they will always be of limited usefulness. You should still be able to surpass the AIs piercing from AT comfortably if you want to do Space Marine divisions with +5 armor variant 1943 Heavy Tanks or HTDs to chesse the AI.

SPGs > rocket artillery.
For quality main tank divisions, sure SPG is better. However for fast Motorized/Light Exploitation divisions, especially if your short on tungsten or run concentrated industry Motorized Rocket Artillery do a great job as cheap and soft battalions that boost firepower.

Normal support rocket artillery can be very powerful if you go Superior Firepower doctrine, right branch.

AT is very suboptimal compared to tanks/planes.
If your not using AT or AA in multiplayer and your enemy makes space marines your dead. End of Story. Against the vanilla AI I agree you can get away without using them, but that does not mean it's worthless. If you play against harder AI mod that gives the AI competitive templates I would not advice skipping either AT or AA so your divisions have no piercing at all.

Towed AA is crap compared to SPAA.
Still it has about twice as much Air Attack per MIC cost as SPAA does, cost no resources but steel and gives you enough piercing to defend vs light tanks. I would say it can have it's uses. Per battalion the cost difference is even larger ( comparing to support AA ), it will be a quite expensive project if you want to arm all your infantry divisions with SPAA.

Heavy fighters can be good late-game when airport space becomes a bigger limiting factor than IC.
No Heavy fighters become worse the later in the game you get vs light fighters. Only the 1936 model can really compete. Heavy fighters lategame are only good at 3 things):
1.) Kamikaze since they got 50% higher Naval attack than light fighters.
2.) Gaining air superiority in large ( pacific ) seazones where light fighters have no/little reach
3.) Shooting down unescorted Strat bombers.

Strats are net-negative. You blow up the roads your tanks need to blitzkrieg.
So that's why they are banned in most MP games? Because they are net-negative?
 
Last edited:

Petite

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be careful by that loss rate from attrition in war, if your Unit use only a smal amount of armyparts

https://hoi4.paradoxwikis.com/Attrition_and_accidents

Note that a loss is calculated for each type of equipment independently so the total losses of all equipment scale with the number of equipment types. This will happen if you divisions use captured equipment or several variants of the same equipment class. Also, the base attrition is relatively large for units using equipment in small quantity, e.g. support artillery company (12 artillery) and heavy self-propelled anti-air battalion (8 armor).

example
24 Div with support artillery company and support AA one year at war without fight

they losses ~ 1000 Art and AA. thats really to much

same if you use 2*LT-Art and 1*LT-AA inside 24 Div
LT-Art = 1526
LT-AA = 1402

so i need the same IC for supply LT-Art and LT-AA...

If anyone Use 100 Cav-Div 4*Cav and 1*MP instead of 6*Cav and no MP he needs IC for 4k supply of
Support Equipment in one Year

I hope they ill fix it, in the next DLC


 

Zwirbaum

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I usually use heavy tanks/mech/signals on my heavy divisions that I use to press lines I'm having difficulty on or burst through with sheer hardness/firepower. They usually run spearheaded attacks while everyone else backs them up by securing the lines behind then w/ good defense.
The first signals tech is +20% initiative and the ones further down the line don't add nearly as much as the first so I only grab the first. If using a research slot is what is holding you back the +20% can be a really good way to 1 up your opponents tactic-wise and counter them more often.

Except signal companies have nothing to do with the tactics. Signal Companies 'Initiative' stat has nothing to do with what you see on the combat screen 'initiative' (indicating general has re-roll of tactics giving him higher chance of countering enemy tactic).

Signal Companies Initiative stat provides following benefits: (where I is the initiative value)
+I% Planning Speed
+(I/4)% Reinforcement Chance

Which translates to: +20%/+32%/+44%/+56% Planning Speed and +5%/+8%/+11%/+14% Reinforcement Chance.
 

Jabby

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I’ve used mechanised in tank divisions but it isn’t really worth it. MotRArt is good when combined with motorised to make 7-2 effectively faster infatry divsions. I’ve used heavy tanks once as the Uk to armour up my infantry divisions
 

krios41

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Mech - too expensive, and too slow
I usualy combine these with medium/modern tanks. I haven't done the math but i think its cheaper to use than another tank battalion. It provides staying power to tank divisions in the form of org without lowering the hardness too much and its speed combo's well with medium tanks, modern tanks will get slightly dragged down by mechanized but if i remember those numbers correctly it shouldn't differ that much