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YoDaddy

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Hundreds of hours testing....

LoLwut?

I have thousands of hours playing and i can tell you, they dont test shxt.

Show us a screenshot of your steam hour count.

Once again everyone wants to play as a small nation, and turn it into a blob, and gets mad when the ai unites to stop them. Want to play unrealistically, go mod the game yourself. Changing AE is easy.

There are real problems like the AI managing their economy, not building buildings, leaving their capital open to attack, and other problems fighting wars.

Coalitions and AE is not a problem, you want to be a big blob play as Russia, Austria, Ottomans, France.
 

aitaituo

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The inability to integrate PUs, the AI canceling trade power transfer from CNs, and the faulty call to arms indicator are three things that the QA team should absolutely be blamed for. They should have been caught easily which is precisely why posters caught them almost immediately. Things like the Pacta Conventa bugs are evidence that Paradox just doesn't have a big enough QA budget, which is not surprising because they aren't a huge company.

They should really consider having semi-open betas or having 20 volunteers each do a full run through of an assigned country, reporting all bugs they encounter and giving their thoughts on balance, in exchange for a free copy of the DLC being tested. This would catch a lot of bugs the QA team doesn't have time for. It's not like there'd be any shortage of volunteers.

But the most complained about crap aren't bugs. Increased AE, goods produced changes, nonsensically limited rival choices, these were all design decisions. And they drastically affected the game. EUIV has been very bipolar since 1.2. We bought one game, then suddenly had another. I know EUIV is a tough game to design DLCs for, especially compared to CK2, but the most off putting changes have had nothing to do with DLC features. It really feels like one team made 1.0-1.1, another made 1.2-1.3, another made 1.4-1.5, another made 1.6, and each had a completely different idea of how EUIV should work.

I think it's entirely reasonable to complain. There should be a stable government design.
 

hauptman

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Show us a screenshot of your steam hour count.

Once again everyone wants to play as a small nation, and turn it into a blob, and gets mad when the ai unites to stop them. Want to play unrealistically, go mod the game yourself. Changing AE is easy.

There are real problems like the AI managing their economy, not building buildings, leaving their capital open to attack, and other problems fighting wars.

Coalitions and AE is not a problem, you want to be a big blob play as Russia, Austria, Ottomans, France.

p2csyhT.png


Oh, I understand, I'm supposed to play the way you want, no matter how rediculously easy or boring it might be for someone with more experience.
 

Taciturn Scot

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Hundreds of hours testing....

LoLwut?

I have thousands of hours playing and i can tell you, they dont test shxt.

These are completely separate issues. Yes, you have played the game for thousands of hours. But that doesn't prove that they don't test.
 

hauptman

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The inability to integrate PUs, the AI canceling trade power transfer from CNs, and the faulty call to arms indicator are three things that the QA team should absolutely be blamed for. They should have been caught easily which is precisely why posters caught them almost immediately. Things like the Pacta Conventa bugs are evidence that Paradox just doesn't have a big enough QA budget, which is not surprising because they aren't a huge company.

They should really consider having semi-open betas or having 20 volunteers each do a full run through of an assigned country, reporting all bugs they encounter and giving their thoughts on balance, in exchange for a free copy of the DLC being tested. This would catch a lot of bugs the QA team doesn't have time for. It's not like there'd be any shortage of volunteers.

But the most complained about crap aren't bugs. Increased AE, goods produced changes, nonsensically limited rival choices, these were all design decisions. And they drastically affected the game. EUIV has been very bipolar since 1.2. We bought one game, then suddenly had another. I know EUIV is a tough game to design DLCs for, especially compared to CK2, but the most off putting changes have had nothing to do with DLC features. It really feels like one team made 1.0-1.1, another made 1.2-1.3, another made 1.4-1.5, another made 1.6, and each had a completely different idea of how EUIV should work.

I think it's entirely reasonable to complain. There should be a stable government design.

^ this.
 

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The inability to integrate PUs, the AI canceling trade power transfer from CNs, and the faulty call to arms indicator are three things that the QA team should absolutely be blamed for.
Why? Do they code? They should know what the code is designed to do but do they have access to the code? You don't know, do you?
They should have been caught easily which is precisely why posters caught them almost immediately.
How do you know they weren't? Because they weren't fixed? Again, fixing bugs is a coding issue. You can expand the QA team all you like but at the end, the bottleneck is the coders' time.
 

aitaituo

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By QA team, I mean both testers and coders responsible for fixing bugs. If Paradox was aware that the AI was canceling trade power transfer from their CNs and that you couldn't integrate PUs, but simply didn't schedule them to be fixed, then something has gone terribly wrong at the administrative level.
 

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By QA team, I mean both testers and coders responsible for fixing bugs. If Paradox was aware that the AI was canceling trade power transfer from their CNs and that you couldn't integrate PUs, but simply didn't schedule them to be fixed, then something has gone terribly wrong at the administrative level.
I believe part of the patch notes for 1.6.2 said there were many more bug fixes coming with 1.7

While my coding skills are rudimentary at best, I am aware that sometimes a bug fix breaks far more and more time is needed to resolve an issue that is discovered, and so some fixes are released while the underlying issue is corrected and to be released at a later date.

Is this a perfect world, no, but your analogy reminds me of a supervisor that was upset that he had to learn how to read a "shortage report", which he found offensive as there shouldn't be such a thing, everything should already be in place, and no shortages should occur for the dept he was in. Manufacturing should have oracle powers and know exactly what the customers were going to order and always have enough already shipped to distribution so that they could ship every order as soon as it was received.
 

jrk264

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I believe part of the patch notes for 1.6.2 said there were many more bug fixes coming with 1.7

While my coding skills are rudimentary at best, I am aware that sometimes a bug fix breaks far more and more time is needed to resolve an issue that is discovered, and so some fixes are released while the underlying issue is corrected and to be released at a later date.

Is this a perfect world, no, but your analogy reminds me of a supervisor that was upset that he had to learn how to read a "shortage report", which he found offensive as there shouldn't be such a thing, everything should already be in place, and no shortages should occur for the dept he was in. Manufacturing should have oracle powers and know exactly what the customers were going to order and always have enough already shipped to distribution so that they could ship every order as soon as it was received.
Nothing about the visible results of the work that the QA team has done inspires the belief that design decisions that appear to be random and misguided are actually the result of a comprehensive QA process.

The original post complained about the design decisions that appear to be random and misguided. Is there any reason the QA process is relevant in replying to a complaint that "[coalitions] did not used to be this hardcore" and "the game mechanics have totally changed in this last version"?
 

aitaituo

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Is this a perfect world, no, but your analogy reminds me of a supervisor that was upset that he had to learn how to read a "shortage report", which he found offensive as there shouldn't be such a thing, everything should already be in place, and no shortages should occur for the dept he was in. Manufacturing should have oracle powers and know exactly what the customers were going to order and always have enough already shipped to distribution so that they could ship every order as soon as it was received.

I realize this is a topic people that often makes people feel attacked and instigates, intentionally or not, a defensive response.

I assure you, I am well aware things go wrong. I am aware that often times you get faced with a choice of fixing a problem or making your deadlines. I do not expect every bug to get fixed, even when the developers have spent $100 million on the game. I do expect products to be functioning. I would compare the unintegratable PUs bug to selling a home security kit that includes, among a couple dozen products, a padlock but no key to the padlock.
 

crusaderking

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Once again everyone wants to play as a small nation, and turn it into a blob, and gets mad when the ai unites to stop them.

Pray tell me, O great one! How should I play OPMs? I can't conquer and there's not much I can do with trade. I guess I can manage this wonderful economy and government for 400 years by teching up, adding ideas and constructing buildings. Yay !! Very fun, much lol, so EU4!!!

I couldn't help the sarcasm seeing your very offensive post towards those who are either less skilled than you, or have different playstyles from you. No one is asking to turn Frankfurt into a blob, just manage to conquer one or two provinces every few decades without facing a coalition of France, Austria, Bohemia, Poland and Denmark. As Frankfurt, we are willing to face a coalition of Hesse, Augsburg, Wurzburg and Ulm, which we can face alongside our allies Switzerland and Brunswick. But a Great Power dogpile on an expanding OPM is ridiculous.
 

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Nothing about the visible results of the work that the QA team has done inspires the belief that design decisions that appear to be random and misguided are actually the result of a comprehensive QA process.

The original post complained about the design decisions that appear to be random and misguided. Is there any reason the QA process is relevant in replying to a complaint that "[coalitions] did not used to be this hardcore" and "the game mechanics have totally changed in this last version"?
Um, afaik QA isn't over design decisions in any organization


I realize this is a topic people that often makes people feel attacked and instigates, intentionally or not, a defensive response.

I assure you, I am well aware things go wrong. I am aware that often times you get faced with a choice of fixing a problem or making your deadlines. I do not expect every bug to get fixed, even when the developers have spent $100 million on the game. I do expect products to be functioning. I would compare the unintegratable PUs bug to selling a home security kit that includes, among a couple dozen products, a padlock but no key to the padlock.

Without seeing the code that controls that I couldn't even begin to fathom a guess but for shoots and giggles, a rough guess is 20 to 100 K of lines of code per MB depending on the compiler / compression, so the 14MB exe has 280,000 to 1.4 million lines of code. Now say you have a function / method that is called by 10% of the code, changing it can have disastrous effects and need a rewrite of major sections / objects, where if it's just a variable that is miscalculated, it's very easy to fix and you push those out asap....

End result without seeing what is causing it, it's hard to form an objectionable opinion.
 

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Show us a screenshot of your steam hour count.

Once again everyone wants to play as a small nation, and turn it into a blob, and gets mad when the ai unites to stop them. Want to play unrealistically, go mod the game yourself. Changing AE is easy.

There are real problems like the AI managing their economy, not building buildings, leaving their capital open to attack, and other problems fighting wars.

Coalitions and AE is not a problem, you want to be a big blob play as Russia, Austria, Ottomans, France.

Hmm...

u4NQgPa.jpg


Standard settings, obviously not ironman due to MP. AI unites to stop what again? Coalitions exist to protect and help blobs, and help me they did...IIRC Vijay had around 500 AE when it finally died. I've said this before, though it seems to fall on deaf ears and accusations that players don't understand the game.

And yes, if you spam alliances and avoid "wants your provinces" for long enough you can do this as most any crap European minor who isn't overtly hated by France or Austria on day 0. DDRJake showed how to do this with the Minghals, though most were focused on the absurd faction bonuses and so probably forgot that the method in principle applies and will always apply if coalitions work as they do now. For much of the run through India, I didn't even have a significant miltech lead yet, nor was one needed.

I know coalitions are a rookie trap, and that players who aren't familiar with the hidden mechanics of the game can lose to coalitions. That isn't the point we made though and it doesn't address the points we made. I was conquering land so quickly that I had trouble making enough ADM for a while, despite spamming ADM-focused rulers and re-elect spamming anybody who started in his 30's...westernizing while surrounded by crap tech groups will do that. Coalitions don't and never did serve their rational intended purpose.

Oh, I understand, I'm supposed to play the way you want, no matter how rediculously easy or boring it might be for someone with more experience.

Wow. I only have 1363 hours as of typing this...though I suppose I shouldn't say how long I've had the game :/. I'm not sure I'll have the staying power to make 2.6k though...we'll see if the game improves :).

Why? Do they code? They should know what the code is designed to do but do they have access to the code? You don't know, do you?

If you want to place blame on coding and the process for tracking and documenting coding changes...well you're probably onto something.

Is this a perfect world, no, but your analogy reminds me of a supervisor that was upset that he had to learn how to read a "shortage report", which he found offensive as there shouldn't be such a thing, everything should already be in place, and no shortages should occur for the dept he was in. Manufacturing should have oracle powers and know exactly what the customers were going to order and always have enough already shipped to distribution so that they could ship every order as soon as it was received.

Something like a code equivalent of "shortage report", for example. Can a comparable report even be generated with accuracy internally at PI? I have my doubts. In business, it's actually not so easy to do such things well.

The original post complained about the design decisions that appear to be random and misguided. Is there any reason the QA process is relevant in replying to a complaint that "[coalitions] did not used to be this hardcore" and "the game mechanics have totally changed in this last version"?

It would go a long way if QA were somehow in sync with said design process/decisions. The QA response to the country-size scaling undocumented change in 1.6 was telling, but that doesn't sound very much like a QA problem to me. Testing new mechanics that nobody even documented would be...difficult. How many other such mechanics are there in each patch?

How do you know they weren't? Because they weren't fixed? Again, fixing bugs is a coding issue. You can expand the QA team all you like but at the end, the bottleneck is the coders' time.

And their efficiency in tracking the changes they implement and handling them consistently, yes. The issues found in open betas that have made it to release, the fact that confirmed bugs go multiple patches without being addressed, both point to a different bottleneck than "QA".

And what if QA pointed these things out and then they got released? Can QA then tell us "well, we told them but they didn't have time to implement it or didn't think it was important" ^_^? They can't tell us that I'd suspect, and I suspect some find that frustrating.

I couldn't help the sarcasm seeing your very offensive post towards those who are either less skilled than you, or have different playstyles from you. No one is asking to turn Frankfurt into a blob

Well...

Q9rzVv2.jpg


Kind of shoddy really, I could do better if I'd planned my route more carefully, but I think this constitutes "blob".
 

aitaituo

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Without seeing the code that controls that I couldn't even begin to fathom a guess but for shoots and giggles, a rough guess is 20 to 100 K of lines of code per MB depending on the compiler / compression, so the 14MB exe has 280,000 to 1.4 million lines of code. Now say you have a function / method that is called by 10% of the code, changing it can have disastrous effects and need a rewrite of major sections / objects, where if it's just a variable that is miscalculated, it's very easy to fix and you push those out asap....

End result without seeing what is causing it, it's hard to form an objectionable opinion.

I'm not sure what you're trying to say here. Are you trying to get me to admit I am not a software developer? I am not a software developer.
 

Chevaresqye

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This game should come with a disclaimer that it is a diplomatic game, not just a military one (and diplomats are mainly for things other than making claims), just for the benefit of players who are struggling to understand what it's about. When you accept that, and tailor your strategies accordingly, it starts making a lot more sense.
All diplomacy stuff in this game is waiting. Eu4 is the worst diplomatic game out there, which close to zero diplomatic maneuver. Some its best perks are its global scale, a lot of land to conquer, and a promise setting for realism, but PDS keep arcadizing the game each patch by increasing unrealistic restriction.
 

artemis667

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All diplomacy stuff in this game is waiting. Eu4 is the worst diplomatic game out there, which close to zero diplomatic maneuver. Some its best perks are its global scale, a lot of land to conquer, and a promise setting for realism, but PDS keep arcadizing the game each patch by increasing unrealistic restriction.

Everything's unrealistic, to a point. Gameplay mechanics have to be abstracted, because it's impossible to make a game fun, historical, and interesting on repeat playthroughs, not without compromising at some levels. There's only so much it's feasible to do within the resources of coding hours and CPU time.

A lot of people have great ideas to improve the game, to be sure. But not all the ideas are practical, and most of them, while improving one aspect, have unintended consequences in other areas. As a very basic example, because this is a strategy/sim, the rules that apply to the player also apply to the AI, for the most part with very few changes. The restrictions introduced to hinder the player are also there to hinder the AI. Were those restrictions removed, as some players want to see, blobbing would be even worse than it is at present, and quite frankly, veteran Paradox players don't want to play a version of EU4 where in most games, there are only two or three massive countries remaining at the end. We're looking for an experience that is reasonably immersive and historically plausible. A departure from this to something that resembles Risk, while it might satisfy some of the newer players, would upset a lot of people.
 

Taciturn Scot

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All diplomacy stuff in this game is waiting. Eu4 is the worst diplomatic game out there, which close to zero diplomatic maneuver.
That's strange because I frequent other game boards and the general impression I get is that the EU series diplomacy system, which includes EU4, is one of the best there is. I'm certain that there are other games which have better but I very much doubt it's the worst. Would you care to justify that remark?
 

Chevaresqye

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Everything's unrealistic, to a point. Gameplay mechanics have to be abstracted, because it's impossible to make a game fun, historical, and interesting on repeat playthroughs, not without compromising at some levels. There's only so much it's feasible to do within the resources of coding hours and CPU time.

A lot of people have great ideas to improve the game, to be sure. But not all the ideas are practical, and most of them, while improving one aspect, have unintended consequences in other areas. As a very basic example, because this is a strategy/sim, the rules that apply to the player also apply to the AI, for the most part with very few changes. The restrictions introduced to hinder the player are also there to hinder the AI. Were those restrictions removed, as some players want to see, blobbing would be even worse than it is at present, and quite frankly, veteran Paradox players don't want to play a version of EU4 where in most games, there are only two or three massive countries remaining at the end. We're looking for an experience that is reasonably immersive and historically plausible. A departure from this to something that resembles Risk, while it might satisfy some of the newer players, would upset a lot of people.

Don't use that abstraction straw man. Many system in EU4 is immersion-breaking, not abstraction. AE and OE. as how it currently works, are totally historically implausible. As the game progress are totally unrealistic and ahistorical, the final result is no longer historical. If you want abstract, the whole AE and OE system should be removed completely. Common rivalry was what keep Europe in check, not a bunch of HRE minors in an ahistorical coalition.