What happened to Scottish Gaelic names?

[CaisLaochach]

Understandable that they want the names in English.

I'd love it if there was more cultural familiarity between the Irish and Scottish cultures in game, always seems a tad sad that if you're one or the other you'll wipe out hte other culture when you conquer them.

 

[twigg]

In similar manner Finno-Ugric, Baltic or even Slavic names are outside the comfort zone of English speakers. Should we use Baltic German names instead of Latvian and Estonian and Swedish names instead of Finnish and Lappish etc. so that these nations become more accessible for those who speak Germanic languages? This isn't aimed against you, but English speakers sometimes lack cultural sensitivities when it comes to names. Personally I have answered few times to questions like: "Is that even a name?"

The fact is that Scottish books about their medieval history prefer Gaelic names instead of English ones and we should use those also in the game, because it's the form which the Scottish people themselves prefer. Using English names instead of Gaelic is cultural imperialism.

This is a little overboard. As an Arab I don't take it personally when most people cannot properly pronounce my name, nor do I get offended when people use the bastardized English version of it. If they wan't to insult or appear superior, they are a lot more direct and less ridiculous ways to do so then intentionally mispronouncing a name. I agree that we should be more culturally sensitive, but to attribute that lack of sensitivity to intentional malice instead of ignorance is just playing the victim card.

 

[Brannart]

I prefer the Anglicized names, but knowing what it's like to sift through files to change things how you like them, I empathize.

 

[Olaus Petrus]

This is a little overboard. As an Arab I don't take it personally when most people cannot properly pronounce my name, nor do I get offended when people use the bastardized English version of it. If they wan't to insult or appear superior, they are a lot more direct and less ridiculous ways to do so then intentionally mispronouncing a name. I agree that we should be more culturally sensitive, but to attribute that lack of sensitivity to intentional malice instead of ignorance is just playing the victim card.

Sometimes people are ignorant, sometimes arrogant and sometimes just racist. Situations and experiences vary. But believe me I don't take plain ignorance as an insult and there was no intention to pull a victim card, but just to point out that names can be a sensitive subject and speakers of the major languages don't always realize that. There are even occasions in history when people have been pressured or forced to change their name, because their own language name isn't English enough, Russian enough or Chinese enough etc.

In this occasion I just voiced my support to Gaelic minority of Scotland who have actively campaigned to promote their language and culture and make it more accepted after centuries of contempt. And I wanted to point out that there is no good reason to think that English form is superior compared to original Gaelic (historically correct) form.

 

[Chyll]

I didn't claim that it's actually true, the main point is there's more in Anglicisation than just translating names. It's a sensitive topic in certain parts of the British Isles and some people think that English tried to destroy their culture and language. Interestingly in academic works published Scotland they use native forms (not just Gaelic, but also Norse, Anglo-Saxon etc.), but those works which are published in England still often use standard English forms. I think it's part of currently popular thought that "Scottish nation" was multicultural and had many languages and traditions. While the traditional idea that Anglo-Normans came and brought civilization to barbarian Gaels is currently unpopular.

Yep. I am familiar with the issues in general as a Scots-American (got to visit last year actually. yay!). Sorry, yours was just the one post I grabbed on the topic, I wasn't trying to single you out.

I just wanted to champion a wacky positived internet theory for once, probably because the issue is senstive.
That and I just doubt our Swede-Scandinavian devs are actively in the mix to Anglicize Scotland. Now, if all the names get standardized into Norse....

 

[Rubidium]

Another point I'd like to make! Is 'Anglicising' all our Gaelic Alasdair's to Alexander's and Mael Muire's to Mile's not the same as Anglicising all our German Heinrich's and French Henri's to Henry's (which would be silly!)??? Scottish Gaelic names definitely have a place in this game!

Except as the timeline goes on, more and more of the Scots started speaking English. Most of Malcolm's sons have English-derived names. And many of the lowlanders would have been English-speakers anyway. So in that respect, a better comparison would be giving the Norman conquerors English names instead of French ones; e.g. William instead of Guillame, etc. Which is what they actually do.

I'm not entirely sold on it, but it's a defensible decision.

 

[generalolaf]

I can't pronounce most of the Celtic-group names, but I'd much rather the names were consistently Celtic than consistently Anglicised. It makes Scotland feel more unique, and after all, the Welsh names have been left alone, haven't they?

EDIT: In response to the above, a way of dealing with the Guillaume/William situation would be having the title history show up with the names as the current culture of that title would have them. Not sure how that would work with the Scots ones though.

 

[Elfryc]

Well, I just launched my long-delayed thread, you'll find it within my signature.

No celtic character names yet, but I guess you'll have quite a lot to say about Irish, Scottish, Scots, Breton and Welsh names...

So, don't hesitate to improve, to complete and so on...

 

[Pte Baldrick]

Would make a mod for this myself, but it is quite a bit of work to do, especially when considering how I'd have to basically start again with each new patch, considering that all it needs is a tiny change to the names, dynasties, and cultures files for the whole thing to basically be invalidated.

 

[HERC0]

Would make a mod for this myself, but it is quite a bit of work to do, especially when considering how I'd have to basically start again with each new patch, considering that all it needs is a tiny change to the names, dynasties, and cultures files for the whole thing to basically be invalidated.

So what you're saying is that I could sit and edit the appropriate files inputting all the Scottish Gaelic name variants, but even if I made a copy this would become obsolete when the game is patched as there may be subtle changes within the particular file and elsewhere?

No way around this???

 

[Calgacus]

The Scottish culture as far as this time frame is concerned is Gaelic. There are non-Gaelic speakers in mainland Scotland, such as English in Dunbar and Teviotdale provinces, adding perhaps Lothian and Clydesdale from the later twelfth century, and Norse in a bit of Caithness. But these guys are not regarded as 'Scottish' by the people of the era, and the territory is outside of 'Scotland' (as opposed to the territory ruled by the king of the Scots). Scots are Gaelic-speakers living in 'Scotland', i.e. Britain north of the Forth river. People in Galloway, Carrick and most of the Clydesdale province c. 1066 are also Gaelic speakers, but are not regarded as Scots, but rather Galwegians or Gall-Gaidel.


The game uses an anglicized Gaelic list with a few Anglo-Norman or Anglo-Saxon additions, and abstracts all the people of the territory of Scotland into one culture. If that's what the devs want to do, then that's their right; though it is not accurate to claim that this is because of a general policy of anglicization, since other than the Scots and Normans, lists tend to be 'native'. On the other hand, ethnic names tend to be in line with whatever the language or orthography of the modern country is, with the notable exception of Ireland, the 1066 Normans and some of the Turkic regions, and modern Scotland is for the most part English in speech not Gaelic. Still, not sure if people will be quite as tolerant about about Scots named Walter and William in the 9th century ... though the Irish list has many Anglo-French borrowings too, and most other cultures will have similar problems with anachronistic borrowings.

The issue with maitaining a mod is not only would you need to maintain all changes in the Scottish file, you'd also need to do this with the Saxon, Norman and English files since there are characters in the Scottish file who, were the culture used historically, shouldn't be so (Anglo-Norman immigrants, and Anglo-Saxons ruling territory that happens to lie within the boundaries of the modern country).

Do note however that the abstraction issue and the anglicization issues are separate. It is possible to have a Scottish culture with a time-appropriate list of anglicized names used by Gaelic speakers even if abstraction were abandoned.

 

[Elfryc]

So what you're saying is that I could sit and edit the appropriate files inputting all the Scottish Gaelic name variants, but even if I made a copy this would become obsolete when the game is patched as there may be subtle changes within the particular file and elsewhere?

No way around this???

Well, I read the reply by Calgacus, he's right. That's why I try to put all cultural names in my thread (adress in my signature), just to make easier the passage of patches.

If you have a list of Gaelic and Scot names, don't hesitate to post them there, I'll credit you evidently. The ideal would be this works as a database for everybody interested in. And don't hesitate with accents: it's easy to wipe them out with CTRL+H in the files (but I personnaly like them a lot, AZERTY keybords have quite are quite an advantage for that).

As for me, I intend to revise all this list of English popes this evening. You could look at the result and do the same for Scottish characters and dynasties: there's only to indicate:
- the list of Gaelic names within 00_cultures.txt;
- the reference to specific characters within scottish.txt, english.txt, saxon.txt... and the names--but I see that at least some have been left by the devs yet;
- and at last there's just to note the changes of surnames within 00_dynasties.txt

You will see for (a culture here).txt and 0_dynasties.txt a specific number which will permit to gain a lot of time after the patch coming with TOG, like this for an Anglicized "of Scotland" family:

107 = {
	name="of Scotland"
	culture = scottish
}

or with this "Donald"/"Domnall", being from the dynasty #688 = "Mac Ailpin":

972 = {  	
	name="Donald"
	# AKA: Domnall
	dynasty=688
	martial=7
	diplomacy=6
	intrigue=5
	stewardship=8
	religion="catholic"
	culture="scottish"
	add_trait="arbitrary"
	add_trait="amateurish_plotter"
	father=6016
	851.1.2={
		birth="851.1.2"
	}
	900.1.2={
		death="900.1.2"
	}
}

 

[riadach]

It's also quite interesting that none of the Irish placenames are in Irish either. There seems to be some sort of block in relation to Gaelic Orthography.

 

[Lordrac]

It's also quite interesting that none of the Irish placenames are in Irish either. There seems to be some sort of block in relation to Gaelic Orthography.

I think there is a mental block in relation to every form of gaelic. The welsh get acknowledged, why don't we? The last british colony..

 

[Sleight of Hand]

Well, I just launched my long-delayed thread, you'll find it within my signature.

No celtic character names yet, but I guess you'll have quite a lot to say about Irish, Scottish, Scots, Breton and Welsh names...

So, don't hesitate to improve, to complete and so on...

I did do this many moons ago, though I doubt I'll ever have the motivation to update it for a recent version of the game.

 

[Autonomous]

it's the form which the Scottish people themselves prefer

Chris King doesn't, and he's Scottish. Neither do I; I find Gaelic orthography to be less comprehensible than any other European language except perhaps Finnish. The Gaelic forms are preferred by academics, sure, but academics are always sticklers for accuracy. Your average man in the street is as likely to talk of Alexander as Alasdair, and if he saw "Máel Coluim" written down he'd be hard-pressed to tell you it was a name, let alone the Gaelic form of Malcolm.

I think it's part of currently popular thought that "Scottish nation" was multicultural and had many languages and traditions. While the traditional idea that Anglo-Normans came and brought civilization to barbarian Gaels is currently unpopular.

Popular academic thought, sure. Popular thought? From the history I was taught at school, you would be forgiven for thinking that Scotland arose, fully formed from nothingness, somewhere between the fall of the Roman Empire and the Reformation.

 

[riadach]

Chris King doesn't, and he's Scottish. Neither do I; I find Gaelic orthography to be less comprehensible than any other European language except perhaps Finnish. The Gaelic forms are preferred by academics, sure, but academics are always sticklers for accuracy. Your average man in the street is as likely to talk of Alexander as Alasdair, and if he saw "Máel Coluim" written down he'd be hard-pressed to tell you it was a name, let alone the Gaelic form of Malcolm.

Popular academic thought, sure. Popular thought? From the history I was taught at school, you would be forgiven for thinking that Scotland arose, fully formed from nothingness, somewhere between the fall of the Roman Empire and the Reformation.

Academic thought is that you refer to people as they would have referred to themselves. There is hardly anything objectionable or "ivory tower" about that.

 

[Autonomous]

Academic thought is that you refer to people as they would have referred to themselves. There is hardly anything objectionable or "ivory tower" about that.

Objectionable? I never claimed anything of the sort. I am only objecting to Olaus attempting to dictate to me what I think.

 

[riadach]

Objectionable? I never claimed anything of the sort. I am only objecting to Olaus attempting to dictate to me what I think.

I'm sorry, I may have misinterpreted an air of anti-academia in your post.

 

[Autonomous]

I'm sorry, I may have misinterpreted an air of anti-academia in your post.

No worries, probably my fault.

I'm actually reading the New Edinburgh History of Scotland right now, good stuff.