What happened to Scottish Gaelic names?
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Another point I'd like to make! Is 'Anglicising' all our Gaelic Alasdair's to Alexander's and Mael Muire's to Mile's not the same as Anglicising all our German Heinrich's and French Henri's to Henry's (which would be silly!)??? Scottish Gaelic names definitely have a place in this game!
This is the main reason I think Scottish Gaelic names should return to the game.
I'd hope that design decisions aren't made entirely around one man's inability to pronounce 'Muireadach'.
I abandoned my only Irish game because the default names were too foreign for my taste. It removed my desire to spread Irishness all over Europe. Which is somewhat silly I guess but it just annoyed me.
Considering this, I guess the 'new' Scottish names would surely please me more. I'll have to give Scotland a try. Sorry for historical purists, though. Names a difficult thing. We all both strive for a degree of familiarity and historical accuracy. As a trilingual Anglo-Franco-Spanish speaker a broad range of names fall within my comfort zone, but I certainly occasionally fall to the urge of naming my children, for example, to something that doesn't fit their culture but which sounds better to my ear.
Its certainly not just one man
Considering this, I guess the 'new' Scottish names would surely please me more. I'll have to give Scotland a try. Sorry for historical purists, though. Names a difficult thing. We all both strive for a degree of familiarity and historical accuracy. As a trilingual Anglo-Franco-Spanish speaker a broad range of names fall within my comfort zone, but I certainly occasionally fall to the urge of naming my children, for example, to something that doesn't fit their culture but which sounds better to my ear.
Its certainly not just one man
I abandoned my only Irish game because the default names were too foreign for my taste. It removed my desire to spread Irishness all over Europe. Which is somewhat silly I guess but it just annoyed me.
Considering this, I guess the 'new' Scottish names would surely please me more. I'll have to give Scotland a try. Sorry for historical purists, though. Names a difficult thing. We all both strive for a degree of familiarity and historical accuracy. As a trilingual Anglo-Franco-Spanish speaker a broad range of names fall within my comfort zone, but I certainly occasionally fall to the urge of naming my children, for example, to something that doesn't fit their culture but which sounds better to my ear.
Its certainly not just one man
In similar manner Finno-Ugric, Baltic or even Slavic names are outside the comfort zone of English speakers. Should we use Baltic German names instead of Latvian and Estonian and Swedish names instead of Finnish and Lappish etc. so that these nations become more accessible for those who speak Germanic languages? This isn't aimed against you, but English speakers sometimes lack cultural sensitivities when it comes to names. Personally I have answered few times to questions like: "Is that even a name?"
The fact is that Scottish books about their medieval history prefer Gaelic names instead of English ones and we should use those also in the game, because it's the form which the Scottish people themselves prefer. Using English names instead of Gaelic is cultural imperialism.
I abandoned my only Irish game because the default names were too foreign for my taste. It removed my desire to spread Irishness all over Europe. Which is somewhat silly I guess but it just annoyed me.
Considering this, I guess the 'new' Scottish names would surely please me more. I'll have to give Scotland a try. Sorry for historical purists, though. Names a difficult thing. We all both strive for a degree of familiarity and historical accuracy. As a trilingual Anglo-Franco-Spanish speaker a broad range of names fall within my comfort zone, but I certainly occasionally fall to the urge of naming my children, for example, to something that doesn't fit their culture but which sounds better to my ear.
Its certainly not just one man
Classical and middle Irish spelling really isn't much different from what you'd expect. In modern Irish Muireadhach would be pronounced Murr-eey-och, the dh serving only to indicate there was a dipthong, but in Middle Irish, Mwir-eh-dhach would suffice. As with modern English, in Middle Irish dh corresponds with ð, and th corresponds with θ. Ch is as you'd expect in loch (i.e. a voiceless velar fricative), gh, being the voiced equivalent. Fh produces no sound at all (Uíbh Fháilí for instance being pronounced Eev Awley), while sh produce a h sound (hence Ó Maoilsheachlainn was anglicised to O'Melaghlin). Bh and mh cause a bit more confusion as they both produce a sound in between a v and a w (though the later has a more nasal quality). Thomond is an anglicisation of Tuadhmhumha which would have been pronounced Toowah-vuva, its southern equivalent Desmhumha, whence Desmond, would be Desvuva and so on and so forth.
Of course, the great thing about Irish orthography is that once you know the rules, it's almost completely regular. That goes for Modern and earlier varieties.
I highly respect your opinion, no matter for that.
But the fact is that I never read one native Irish name before playing CK1, and loved to play them because of their names.
And I sincerely believe that the more difficult in a game is a 'false' immersion: I'm thinking here of Normans having a few English names, of Egyptian Arabic women having names of Old Egypt goddesses, and so on. I could never play Egypt because I didn't wanted to see more Isis and Sekhmet on Earth!
But what's the more chocking of all: English names for the popes! What a shame! Yet that has been said, so I won't stress this point. I just suggest to read a more generalized conclusion to Olaus Petrus:
(Thanks for lending me you sentence, Olaus!)
I believe this is not the best reason. I'm allways surprized to see so much and so various names and surnames in USA, where they're used, pronounced and writen down without real problem.
So, I believe the real problem is in fact that they're not--generally speaking--used to practice another language than English, so these names having another rules for spelling and pronunciation are quite a Hell for them.
And if this would be considered an injure, that's not the case at all. Being French, I perfectly know this state of mind, even if French language is not as extended as English!
Okay, so there's just to learn that each 7 letters equal one sound. Quite easy, in fact!
This time I understand English people!
End of joke: nobody has a better list for Celtic names?
Okay, so there's just to learn that each 7 letters equal one sound. Quite easy, in fact!
This time I understand English people!
Well, it's not that bad anymore. Between the 14th century and the earlier 20th century these were prolific, because orthography had not caught up with pronunciation. Thus letters like eadha could have an ee sound, and úghadh could have an oo sound. Formally, each of the letters involved (barring the ea which is mostly reflecting the quality of the consonants) would be an individual phoneme, but these sounds collapsed into eachother in the 14th century while orthography (as well as poetic pronunciation) remained the same. However, the spelling reform in the 20th century settle most issues. Thus scrúdughadh is now scrúdú, and Muireadhach is now Muiríoch. There are still some pecularities but they are not that intimidating.
Perhaps the game should provide a free Middle Irish pronunciation course?
I would like to see the Scottish Gaelic names return. Ireland has Gaelic names, so why not Scotland?
Translating names into your language so you can better understand them is NOT "imperialism". It's just something that every language on the planet does. While I agree Scottish names should be Gaelic, it's a bit much to accuse P'dox of... Imperialism of all things.
When other nations in the game use their own language names instead of English names (it would be relatively easy to find English equivalent for most German, Spanish, French etc. names), but Scottish Gaelic names are in English, one can but wonder if it's a political statement related to current events in Scotland.
I think that's reaching.
I'd rather think it is related to some name adjustments and cleanup to prep for ToG.
I didn't claim that it's actually true, the main point is there's more in Anglicisation than just translating names. It's a sensitive topic in certain parts of the British Isles and some people think that English tried to destroy their culture and language. Interestingly in academic works published Scotland they use native forms (not just Gaelic, but also Norse, Anglo-Saxon etc.), but those works which are published in England still often use standard English forms. I think it's part of currently popular thought that "Scottish nation" was multicultural and had many languages and traditions. While the traditional idea that Anglo-Normans came and brought civilization to barbarian Gaels is currently unpopular.
For what it's worth, myself and an esteemed colleague (a man writing a Ph.D. on Norse-Gael affairs, though I'm unaware of the specific thesis) have rewritten the file so as to bring consistent names to all adoring fans. They're still in Anglicized form, but with the likes of Malmure rater than Miles. And yes, they link to the Irish forms where appropriate.
I doubt I am able to say more, so I shan't, but I hope this puts y'all at some plateau of moral calmness.
(Of course, it's not my decision as to whether or not it is accepted...)
I doubt I am able to say more, so I shan't, but I hope this puts y'all at some plateau of moral calmness.
(Of course, it's not my decision as to whether or not it is accepted...)
This was what I didn't like a lot - we get Saxons and Normans, then English; but we got just Scottish? And it turns out Scottish are already post-melting pot at 1066.
The problem is that even if you use Anglicized forms for names like Iames Stewart and Causantín mac Cináeda, these are different enough that there should be one culture for Gaelic and one for Scots. It really breaks the immersion if you have guys named James in 9th century. It's even worse than having names of Norman origin in Anglo-Saxon England.