What exactly does it mean '100% more effective in inland sea'?

[byebytoad]

What exactly does it mean '100% more effective' in inland sea for galleys?
I mean which parameter actually change for them?
Do galleys get 100% more durability? Or more offensive power? Or more morale? And in what measures?
Does anybody know the exact modifiers galleys get in inland sea?

100% more effective seems a bit generic and I'd like to understand it better. I've searched with google but I've never seen specified exactly what this '100% more effective' really means.

 

[YuriiH]

offensive power

 

[The Danish King]

I think it means 100% more cannons e.g. double the number of cannons.

 

[StefanFan]

Quick question related to this. So, given the fact that the heavy ships sit on 3 spots, and galleys use 1, while also having 100% efficiency, it means that 3 galleys will tear apart 1 heavy ship, right? Because the number of cannons is 3 x 1 galley x 2 ( from 100% ) = 6 x the number of cannons a galley has.

 

[Vetgirig]

Quick question related to this. So, given the fact that the heavy ships sit on 3 spots, and galleys use 1, while also having 100% efficiency, it means that 3 galleys will tear apart 1 heavy ship, right? Because the number of cannons is 3 x 1 galley x 2 ( from 100% ) = 6 x the number of cannons a galley has.

Yes. Well, on the other hand they are kinda sturdy- but yes galleys will give them a beating.
And the morale hurts when galleys get killed.

For inland sea - I like galleys.

 

[Dominion]

Quick question related to this. So, given the fact that the heavy ships sit on 3 spots, and galleys use 1, while also having 100% efficiency, it means that 3 galleys will tear apart 1 heavy ship, right? Because the number of cannons is 3 x 1 galley x 2 ( from 100% ) = 6 x the number of cannons a galley has.

Anything you know about land combat you can throw out the window.

Naval combat is a full CW of heavies vs full CW of heavies unless you have galley CA in your NIs.
3 galleys SHOULD rip apart 1 heavy. Problem is that every sunken ship sends a heavy morale hit to other ships, a hit which is a lot harder than what you get from using a unit in land combat.

Following your 3v1 example: Send one heavy in, take down 2 galleys, back out, repair, rinse and repeat.
Full CW of heavies vs Galleys just stays in the fight long enough to kill a good quarter of their army, then backs out before a heavy sinks.

Your rule of thumb is galley spam early on if you're playing around Anatolia to block the strait (if that's what you want) and heavy spam after ~1500.
The costs of constantly having to replace galleys offsets the balance into heavies' favor.

Pretty boring setup, but what can you do. Gets a bit more interesting in MP matches, but not by much.

 

[byebytoad]

I think it means 100% more cannons e.g. double the number of cannons.

Thank you guys.
How is the modif

Anything you know about land combat you can throw out the window.

Naval combat is a full CW of heavies vs full CW of heavies unless you have galley CA in your NIs.

I'm playing as Venice and I have +25% CA. How this affect the strength of the galleys?

I mean, so far galley in inland sea means double cannon.
So at base level means
24 cannons (Galley) vs 40 cannons (Heavies)
8 Hull -----------------vs- 20 Hull

So Galleys have 60% fire power of Heavies in inland sea and 40% durability. So still much weaker on a 1 vs 1 in inland sea. So even on inland sea needs at least
3 galleys to make it even,
1-How does CA affect this equation?
2-Does speed have any effect on battle? I thought speed meant the speed at which ships travels from one region to another, but from what I see Carracks are not twice slower than
Light ships as they should if that was the case.

 

[MrParadux]

Good question, I think. Is combat ability added multiplicatively or additively to the inland sea bonus?

 

[StefanFan]

Thank you guys.
How is the modif

I'm playing as Venice and I have +25% CA. How this affect the strength of the galleys?

I mean, so far galley in inland sea means double cannon.
So at base level means
24 cannons (Galley) vs 40 cannons (Heavies)
8 Hull -----------------vs- 20 Hull

So Galleys have 60% fire power of Heavies in inland sea and 40% durability. So still much weaker on a 1 vs 1 in inland sea. So even on inland sea needs at least
3 galleys to make it even,
1-How does CA affect this equation?
2-Does speed have any effect on battle? I thought speed meant the speed at which ships travels from one region to another, but from what I see Carracks are not twice slower than
Light ships as they should if that was the case.

Incidentally I also play a Venice game right now. I think the base level is not 1 galley vs 1 heavy, it's 3 galleys vs 1 heavy, because one heavy uses 3 width units. So, for starters for example, 1 Galley has 12 cannons and 8 hull. x 3 it's 36 cannons and 24 hull. 100% bonus it's 72 cannons. 1 Early Carrack has 40 cannons and 20 hull. While the hulls are similar, 20 vs 24, the cannons are almost double. I don't know how the fighting order occurs tho.

 

[LegacyCWAL]

Ducat for ducat, galleys will outfight heavies in an inland sea. If you're on an inland sea and have the choice between buying three galleys or buying one heavy, take the galleys. However, heavies are more versatile, and (as has been mentioned) can be micromanaged to wear down galley fleets, even in an inland sea. So if your economy is at the point where the choice is instead something like buying thirty galleys vs. buying ten heavies, go ahead and get the heavies.


Edit: forgot to add: Unless you have bonuses to one or the other, of course. Venice, for example, would probably take the thirty galleys in the latter example.

2-Does speed have any effect on battle? I thought speed meant the speed at which ships travels from one region to another, but from what I see Carracks are not twice slower than
Light ships as they should if that was the case.

According to the wiki, ships actually have two speed values: strategic speed, which affects how quickly they move around the world map; and tactical speed, which supposedly does something in combat that is not very clear to me.

 

[PhoenixG]

Tactical speed is for blockading stuff. The higher the less ship needed. Strategic speed is for moving around.

Also note why galleys are bad, even in in-land sea. They can't chase other ships. They are the lowest one and all others will just run away if they don't attack you.

 

[byebytoad]

Tactical speed is for blockading stuff. The higher the less ship needed. Strategic speed is for moving around.

Also note why galleys are bad, even in in-land sea. They can't chase other ships. They are the lowest one and all others will just run away if they don't attack you.

I'm seeing that now thanks to all your clarifications.
To be honest I'm trying hard to justify myself building galleys even though I operate almost exclusively in the mediterranea and even though I have the +25% CA bonus.
I don't get what Paradox made them so bad.
If they at least had the same superior tactical speed advantage over the Heavies it could at least make sense (because as you said they could be at least good at chasing or eventually escaping from heavies when needed).

 

[Dominion]

I'm seeing that now thanks to all your clarifications.
To be honest I'm trying hard to justify myself building galleys even though I operate almost exclusively in the mediterranea and even though I have the +25% CA bonus.
I don't get what Paradox made them so bad.
If they at least had the same superior tactical speed advantage over the Heavies it could at least make sense (because as you said they could be at least good at chasing or eventually escaping from heavies when needed).

They're good at defending, blocking straits and a strong earlygame unit (mainly because you can sell them after they're of no use to you anymore).

Venice can use them because of their 25% CA bonus.
Other nations with Galley bonis can do so as well, as I said earlier.
Without anything in your NIs they're a waste of cash post-1500.

 

[Rikissa]

The fact that player and AI can almost always retreat without losing a heavy ship makes for overall strange naval gameplay and is a huge detriment for galleys

You can't really inflict Trafalgar-style losses on an opponent

Galleys also have slower strategic speed, so having a galley in a fleet will slow it down

 

[PhoenixG]

I'm seeing that now thanks to all your clarifications.
To be honest I'm trying hard to justify myself building galleys even though I operate almost exclusively in the mediterranea and even though I have the +25% CA bonus.
I don't get what Paradox made them so bad.
If they at least had the same superior tactical speed advantage over the Heavies it could at least make sense (because as you said they could be at least good at chasing or eventually escaping from heavies when needed).

They are mainly for defending. While they are slow and decent fighting in in-land seas, they are 2nd in blokading. On top of that, they are dirty cheap to build.

 

[byebytoad]

They are mainly for defending. While they are slow and decent fighting in in-land seas, they are 2nd in blokading. On top of that, they are dirty cheap to build.

A bit too little to justify their use.
I mean:
1-they're worthless on open sea, so basically in most water. I don't think many realizes this is a huge penalty already
2-They're slowest ships : no good for chasing or escaping bigger fleets. And if with other ships they'll slow them down.
3-They're cost effective for battle in inland seas...but...they'll still take more losses (ships lost or sunk) to a fleet of heavies.
4-You can only have a certain number o ships: so yeah, galleys might be cost-effective than heavies in inland sea, but you need 3 of them for one heavy which means 2 less light ships.

I'm really trying to justify having galleys because of the +25% CA bonus as Venice, but really... they should have had at least the same strategic speed as tactical speed.
It's absurd that they move much slower than Heavies.

 

[Palatinus Germanicus]

Galleys can surprise you. I had 36 galliots as Persia, blocking the entrance to the Med. (I had unified Islam) I was attacking the Pope to reconquest on behalf of my vassal, Naples. I was invading Britain (the Pope's ally), and it was going well. Next thing I know, the entire British fleet (43 ships), loaded with a big army, is engaging my galliots -- just south of Granada.
I'm thinking, "OK, time to peace out w/ Britian soon... b/c I don't feel like hassling with his armies in the Med. region."

Well, even w/o an admiral (as if I ever can have an admiral -- what is this, EU3?), I only lost TWO ships. I sank all of his heavies... 16 of 'em. Along w/ many light ships, and transports as well. Totally repulsed 'em. They retreated to Wales, where I promptly destroyed them all (good timing w/ taking a fort).

I spent most of the game with about 160 ships and ~40-50 force limit. Taking about a 20-30 ducat hit per month. But so what. Galleys in the Med.? Yes, please. Always room for 'em, in my navy.

 

[byebytoad]

Galleys can surprise you. I had 36 galliots as Persia, blocking the entrance to the Med. (I had unified Islam) I was attacking the Pope to reconquest on behalf of my vassal, Naples. I was invading Britain (the Pope's ally), and it was going well. Next thing I know, the entire British fleet (43 ships), loaded with a big army, is engaging my galliots -- just south of Granada.
I'm thinking, "OK, time to peace out w/ Britian soon... b/c I don't feel like hassling with his armies in the Med. region."

Well, even w/o an admiral (as if I ever can have an admiral -- what is this, EU3?), I only lost TWO ships. I sank all of his heavies... 16 of 'em. Along w/ many light ships, and transports as well. Totally repulsed 'em. They retreated to Wales, where I promptly destroyed them all (good timing w/ taking a fort).

I spent most of the game with about 160 ships and ~40-50 force limit. Taking about a 20-30 ducat hit per month. But so what. Galleys in the Med.? Yes, please. Always room for 'em, in my navy.

That's surprising and encouraging.
I'll keep 30 of them and see how it goes in the late campaign.

 

[StefanFan]

I think galleys are underestimated, as cavalry is ( one of the PDX guys had some interesting statements about cavalry and what they do great ). For inland seas I think they are definitely the right choice, maybe even for the entire game. I really doubt that PDX will make Otts AI use galleys if galleys would be weak against heavies in inland battles.

 

[Dominion]

I really doubt that PDX will make Otts AI use galleys if galleys would be weak against heavies in inland battles.

Oh yea, that definitely goes into their calculations. Just like the AI didn't spam naval force limit buildings for years.
Or like the AI would never create mercs in American provinces when their homeland in Europe is under attack.
Or how they would never run around with stacks of 1 inf, 200 cav, 1 cannon and eat insufficient suport when they're attacked.

It's definitely not like I just wiped a 1/12/5 stack, nooo, that wouldn't make sense, I really doubt PDX would make them do that.

Please...