What exactly about Kyros empire is Evil?

[wimplestiltskin]

Commoner may be happy or maybe not. He loses local overlord but he gains absolute deity instead. Don't much the difference.

Well, say the "commoner" has a beligerent overlord who is always at war with her neighbour, acts as judge, jury and executioner with laws drawn from tradition but also from her right to rule. She demands harsh taxes to support her wars and men and women to fight for her, should you refuse, she will come up with some arbitrary law to have you slain. Sounds kinda rubbish. With Kyros, you have clearly defined laws, common to all folks under Kyros rule, which is alot of people and places, less conflict, as Kyros is the ruler, no such rivals and internal disputes could be settled by law. So similar yes, but different enough that a commoner might consider Kyros rule more attractive. Or not, we shall have to see!

 

[Castorem]

I think the "evil has won" is coming from the game narrator's point of view, who is clearly someone from the Tiers.

Kyros is a conqueror. She is not 2016 socially aware. I don't see anything more evil than most of the ancient kingdoms in our history, or most fantasy worlds. She's just the winner, and that makes her unpopular.

"My way or die" isn't evil by non-modern standards. It's how an absolute ruler functioned for the vast majority of our history. Slavery? Torture? The moral objection to all this is fairly modern.

Now, I find her society abhorrent -- the absolute power of the law isn't something I generally support in a fantasy kingdom ... but it's not evil!

"She"?

 

[Aramintai]

Why evil? The game itself is called Tyranny. Nowadays this term equals evil, or in D&D terms - lawful evil. If you look it up it means - cruel and oppressive government or rule.
That sums up nicely why Kyros and her rule is evil. Kind government doesn't oppress their subjects, respect local laws and doesn't allow their military to rampage, torture and use bloody violence without repercussions.

 

[MateuszS]

Why evil? The game itself is called Tyranny. Nowadays this term equals evil, or in D&D terms - lawful evil. If you look it up it means - cruel and oppressive government or rule.
That sums up nicely why Kyros and her rule is evil. Kind government doesn't oppress their subjects, respect local laws and doesn't allow their military to rampage, torture and use bloody violence without repercussions.

Come on - nice government that kind didn't exist until XX century. And Kyros rule isn't as much tyrannical as it could be. Actually, more evil comes from civilians (smugglers, liars, bandits etc.) than from Kyros reign (apart from destruction and misery caused by war - but that's right of war itself).

 

[Aramintai]

Come on - nice government that kind didn't exist until XX century.

Shows how far humanity have come. But if you want to roleplay as an ancient barbarian who doesn't know any better no one is stopping you.

 

[MateuszS]

Well, gameplay is set in archaic times of fictional world - putting modern standards is inappropriate. What would you expect - constitition, human rights?

 

[demanvanwezel]

simply put, kyros is only really evil compared to other games in this genre

the evil overlord attempting to conquer the world is a widely used trope in these games and usually you're on the other side

this time they turned it upside down

 

[fides5566]

Come on - nice government that kind didn't exist until XX century. And Kyros rule isn't as much tyrannical as it could be. Actually, more evil comes from civilians (smugglers, liars, bandits etc.) than from Kyros reign (apart from destruction and misery caused by war - but that's right of war itself).

Kyros rule actually pretty fair for such a time. But still a tyranny. She forces other to adopt here law and abandon any of their tradition. She also dictates what role you would do in her empire. Kinda like communism but still pretty good compares to what most that we had in our history. Not that bad but definitely not "good" for sure.

 

[MateuszS]

Well, tyrant is - in general - person who has great power and rules above the law, without any positive or negtive connotations. Not good, but not that bad if such a person isn't sadistic, greedy or cruel.

 

[Aramintai]

Well, gameplay is set in archaic times of fictional world - putting modern standards is inappropriate. What would you expect - constitition, human rights?

Well, even by archaic standards her rule was nowhere near kind. By that time terms like compassion, kindness and mutual respect were long known. Just because some rulers chose to ignore them while subjugating and oppressing other nations doesn't mean all of them were such.
And in any case, this is a fantasy setting not a real historical time and place, so any modern notions apply here. The game is called Tyranny, this term is evil, Kyros is the Evil Overlord, get over it. I doubt any of you defending her rule would have really wanted to live under it, especially if you were a lowly Tiersman.

 

[MateuszS]

How many kind, compassionate rulers from our ancient times do we know? Most of them were conquerors.
In that case every government up to modern times can be called "tyranny". Long live anarchy!
Kyros is evil! Oh my... how sad. Of course! Kyros dared to invade Tiers, used magical WMDs and so on. Every ruler with such power could do this. Get over it.

 

[Aramintai]

How many kind, compassionate rulers from our ancient times do we know? Most of them were conquerors.
In that case every government up to modern times can be called "tyranny". Long live anarchy!
Kyros is evil! Oh my... how sad. Of course! Kyros dared to invade Tiers, used magical WMDs and so on. Every ruler with such power could do this. Get over it.

Read about the real historical inspiration of Kyros and shut up:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cyrus_the_Great

Respected the customs and religions of the lands he conquered - check
Well recognized for his achievements in human rights - check

 

[aono]

The game is called Tyranny, this term is evil

Not exactly. Actually, tyrannos is a ruler of a polis who just isn't limited by any means of democracy or religion. Thanks romans we use the term degratory, but for greeks it wasn't so.
"In ancient Greece, tyrants were influential opportunists that came to power by securing the support of different factions of a deme. The word tyrannos, possibly pre-Greek, Pelasgian or eastern in origin, then carried no ethical censure; it simply referred to anyone, good or bad, who obtained executive power in a polis by unconventional means. Support for the tyrants came from the growing middle class and from the peasants who had no land or were in debt to the wealthy landowners. It is true that they had no legal right to rule, but the people preferred them over kings or the aristocracy."
I'd say this description fits Kyros.

 

[MateuszS]

Read about the real historical inspiration of Kyros and shut up:

What do you want to prove? Cyrus invaded and conquered Media, Lydia, Cilicia, Babylon and some other states, imposed his law there - so he was a tyrant. However, he didn't persecute foreign religions, was quite tolerant ("just obey and serve") etc. So was he good or bad? Tell me, rude man.

 

[EisenKreutzer]

Evil is a terribly subjective thing, but Kyros' Empire is a pretty harsh state.

Kyros rules through fear. She has Archons as regents, generals and enforcers, beings of terrible power that operate more or less outside the law, and rule through might alone.
The very foundation of the Empire is servitude. The primary law of Kyros is Your Life Is Not Your Own. Kyros owns every citizen of her Empire.
Breaking the laws of Kyros carries extreme penalties. Slavery, mutilation and death are the most common punishments, I don't think there are prisons of any kind (aside from individual Archons torture dungeons). Sentences may carried out on the spot, with no trial or representation, by agents of Kyros or her Archons. There do not seem to be any legal rights, and justice is largely up to the individual Archon to ensure and dispense. Some, like Tunon, are dedicated to fair treatment, but "fair" means fair to Kyros, not the citizen.
In war, soldiers and generals of the Empire may employ any means they deem neccessary to secure victory. This extends to genocide, torture and the destruction of entire nations. Kyros does not care about the lives or the suffering of those who do not belong to the Empire. She cares very little about Empire citizens as well, except that their lives belong to her. Enemies of the Empire have no such protection.

So, Empire citizens have no rights beyond the guarantee that there will be no war whithin the Empire. They are ruled by extremely powerful individuals and a god-emperor who all have terrible magical powers, and Kyros and her Archons use fear to control the population, who are subject to their every whim and fancy.

I'd say this goes beyond any empire in the real world when it comes to harsh, ruthless governance.
By many standards, this makes Kyros and her Empire evil.

 

[Aramintai]

Not exactly. Actually, tyrannos is a ruler of a polis who just isn't limited by any means of democracy or religion. Thanks romans we use the term degratory, but for greeks it wasn't so.
"In ancient Greece, tyrants were influential opportunists that came to power by securing the support of different factions of a deme. The word tyrannos, possibly pre-Greek, Pelasgian or eastern in origin, then carried no ethical censure; it simply referred to anyone, good or bad, who obtained executive power in a polis by unconventional means. Support for the tyrants came from the growing middle class and from the peasants who had no land or were in debt to the wealthy landowners. It is true that they had no legal right to rule, but the people preferred them over kings or the aristocracy."
I'd say this description fits Kyros.

Is the game called Tyrannos? No, it's called Tyranny, which is a more modern term. And your description is just one of the early ones, other early ones, say Plato and Aristotle, define it negatively as "one who rules without law, and uses extreme and cruel tactics—against his own people as well as others". That descibes Kyros's rule even better. All later ones are negative as well.
Besides all that, devs themselves called Kyros's rule as evil. "Evil won", remember?

 

[MateuszS]

It would be good to know what were laws or traditions of the states conquered by Kyros. For now, we know only Kyros law that is by modern standards and for Tiersmen (as they are being invaded) cruel. However, we don't know how common were such practices in that world. What do we know for sure that Kyros managed to put herself above the other Archons (and we don't know how did they rule before).

BTW - most of the evil comes not from Kyros laws but from individual actions made by both Tiersman and invaders.

 

[aono]

I don't think there are prisons of any kind (aside from individual Archons torture dungeons)

Actually, they are. Tunon speaks about "dungeons" under his Court, and he don't looks like a guy who tortue for his pleasing.

Sentences may carried out on the spot, with no trial or representation, by agents of Kyros or her Archons.

Actually, it's not EXACTLY true. Kyros' juridical system based on another jurisdical principle - the point of the court is a mean to know the truth, don't came to socially acceptable outcome, so principle of competition in the court is not applicable. Also it isn't making without trial, but Fatebinder, as the highest jurisdical authority in Kyros Empire, have a right to call a place and time for trial, say "here and now". Useful for sometimes, I should notice.

There do not seem to be any legal rights, and justice is largely up to the individual Archon to ensure and dispense.

Actually, they are. The very point of Kyros Peace is a legal right for life (by ownership to Kyros, of course). And no, it's not for any Archon, just Tunon - and by extension his Fatebinders.

And your description is just one of the early ones, other early ones, say Plato and Aristotle, define it negatively as "one who rules without law, and uses extreme and cruel tactics—against his own people as well as others".

Sorry, did you read Plato? By his definition, tyranny came when democracy is degraded beyond redemption, so it needs a great deal of harsh methods to prevent society to fall.
But I just wanted to point that word "tyranny" isn't evil as it is, especially when you don't follow natural law jurispruncence school, which is, I should notice, religious by nature.

 

[Aramintai]

BTW - most of the evil comes not from Kyros laws but from individual actions made by both Tiersman and invaders.

The way everything is monitored in her government machine it's pretty much clear that such evil behavior by her military forces is condoned and even encouraged by Kyros, otherwise there'd be mass trials and executions in her army and Bleden Mark'd be much more busy.

 

[aono]

The way everything is monitored in her government machine...

...as Fatebinder the very mechanism to monitor everything, i'd say such monitoring is frustratingly (for me) low.
You need a great, great pack filled with proofs of misdeeds against every Kyros law, just to make Tunon do his job. I'd say it's bad writing by storytellers, but, well, we get what we get.

UPD: Let me put it with another angle - who monitored Ashe and Voices until player come?