What do YOU want from the AI?

[exi123]

[...]

I know the Glanuis mod Author made a pretty good AI. In order to teach it to use the economy he had to use (i think) a serious of pop up events to the AI.
The AI actually uses fleets, does a well job at managing an economy and can effectively build multiple 22k size fleets. This mod was able to make a better AI than the developers and fix it in less the time. Surely it can't be that hard to have the developers work on it if some modder boi can do it.
And this is on captain difficulty..

But even Glavius's AI mod cant fix some hardcoded bugs like recruiting armies and disband them. Same with upgrading Starbases to downgrade them straight away. You know why the AI has better fleets with Glavius' mod? Because its building shipyards. In vanilla the AI is mostly f*#%ed when the homesystem ist lost cause of no shipyards. It feels better in the early game, but later, with more tech and building upgrades in the midgame the AI lost too, mainly to the reason it cant upgrade buildings and is unable to manage unemployment or overpopulation. And believe it or not, even the AI struggles with promoted pops and the downfall of basic resources from the loss of workers in mines and powerdistricts...

 

[Fireflycat]

But even Glavius's AI mod cant fix some hardcoded bugs like recruiting armies and disband them. Same with upgrading Starbases to downgrade them straight away. You know why the AI has better fleets with Glavius' mod? Because its building shipyards. In vanilla the AI is mostly f*#%ed when the homesystem ist lost cause of no shipyards. It feels better in the early game, but later, with more tech and building upgrades in the midgame the AI lost too, mainly to the reason it cant upgrade buildings and is unable to manage unemployment or overpopulation. And believe it or not, even the AI struggles with promoted pops and the downfall of basic resources from the loss of workers in mines and powerdistricts...

Can't say I've noticed those bugs.
His mod does fix the overpopulation issue, not upgrading buildings ect. I highly suggest using it for now. The AI is actually doing well in late game with it enabled, even got me scared the few times it declared war.

 

[Etrutian]

Meaningful Diplomacy.

 

[TheFunMachine]

I like this thread, keep it going. The devs need to see the community interested in serious AI improvement (which should not be left up to modders to fill the gap). AI is something devs from my experience are less keen to prioritise because often in their eyes it is seen as a thankless task, that presents diminishing returns when factoring in other competing priorities like revenue and content pipelines, etc.

It's likely a truth that there are many, many casual players who are happy with a cow-clicker experience, where no serious challenge from the AI presents itself, but the short-comings hurt the core fans who will, if generally pleased, help give the game free marketing and a longer tail in sales. It's in the interest for Paradox to really dig in and make the AI significantly less brain dead then it is currently, but they need to see us the community, talking about the issues and pushing for change -- in a constructive, and positive manner to be sure.

Now, the framework is already there, Paradox clearly have had talented programmers work on the AI: Glavius and other AI modders are essentially tweaking, and modifying the existing weights, and putting in workarounds via the events system, and they have done an absolutely stunning job wacking the AI into a much better place, so there's hope for this game yet.

Lets keep this conversation going and show the devs that AI improvements are valued and sought after by the community.

 

[BarnCape]

You guys have super-major bug which cripples any AI that uses slavery. AI puts their unemployed slaves on the market. It does this without any regards atgat if these are sold, it will ruin a building on a planet if sold slaves cross mod 5 threshold.

Since AI never repairs buildings all AI that sells slaves ends up with a planet with majority of buildings ruined. Just check any AI empire w slaver guilds or indebtured servitude civic, they all lose not gain pops once galactic market is opened

 

[Avil]

AI is something devs from my experience are less keen to prioritise because often in their eyes it is seen as a thankless task, that presents diminishing returns when factoring in other competing priorities like revenue and content pipelines, etc.

That's true. You can't make a DLC out of major AI fix.
Actually... 2.2 was mostly game changes, and DLC didn't contain much in it.
I wonder, how PDX will evaluate success of 2.2 patch. Will they risk making another major change (for AI, damn it!) with "meh" DLC?

 

[Chthon]

Something I'd like the AI to do is treat a galactic threat as a sort of war. Something to care about even before it comes to their territory.

I'm sick and tired of bearing the brunt of these events, while my federation members all decide to go to war fruitlessly with a civilization halfway across the galaxy. Either that or while one of the members is being nibbled to death and he doesn't react to it, but I have to defend him.

 

[Todie]

@Silens im not convinced about market chats; it might just be thr UI +difficulty fooling you. On captain with scaling off, ai gets substantial (25%) production bonuses from day1. Even if they invest/ balance
economy poorly, they will run some surpluses, that they will sell when they have shortages. Maybe market data just doesnt show sales, only purchases? (Im afk - cant check this atm)

 

[LWE]

On a side note, I appreciate how in Stellaris, statements like "Contingency AI/Machine Empire AI is bugged" work on both in-universe and real-life levels.

 

[Silens]

@Silens im not convinced about market chats; it might just be thr UI +difficulty fooling you. On captain with scaling off, ai gets substantial (25%) production bonuses from day1. Even if they invest/ balance
economy poorly, they will run some surpluses, that they will sell when they have shortages. Maybe market data just doesnt show sales, only purchases? (Im afk - cant check this atm)

It seems you missed it then. Here, let me redirect you to the according discussions << here at the Stellaris forum >> or over << at the Steam Forum >>

It's not just my imagination or some UI display bug, the AI buys from the market and doesn't pay a single credit for it. And until now this wasn't fixed at all.

 

[Number One]

id settle for competence.

 

[Todie]

It seems you missed it then. Here, let me redirect you to the according discussions << here at the Stellaris forum >> or over << at the Steam Forum >>

It's not just my imagination or some UI display bug, the AI buys from the market and doesn't pay a single credit for it. And until now this wasn't fixed at all.

Thx for the link. Ive been reading the thread now, but also looked for firsthand evidence watching a game. Didnt find any evidence though. It was sitting at - 0 energy and 0 either food or consumer goods. Nothing xhanged for like a year, then it sold 100 minerals and started breaking even.

Anyway, this is a tangent - we’ should leave the digging on that to the thread you linked.

 

[pmchem]

I wonder if new players even realize the game's AI used to be a threat for winning the game

 

[Chthon]

I wonder if new players even realize the game's AI used to be a threat for winning the game

At least until you learned how they fight wars, and constantly distracted then and kept them on defensive.

 

[Lasagna Star Empire]

I want the DI works properly. By DI I mean Devs Intelligence. If DI is fixed then we will have functional AI.

Dont't hesitate to disagree.

 

[Pizzarugi]

I want the AI to be capable of making an amazing enough economy to assemble a fleet that would have me worried if they wanted to go to war with me on Grand Admiral settings.

I remember one time back in 2.1, I was using NSC and Glavius AI Megamod. I had a friendly neighbor, the Ketlings, who formed a federation with several spiritualist empires who hated me. The moment the federation assembled, they declared war on me, with the Ketlings as the president. Both the federation fleet and the Ketlings' own fleet each had over 1 million fleet power. It was the most intense war I've ever been in, but I've never ever seen it happen again in later games.

I would love it if the vanilla AI was that good.

 

[~Robbie]

I'm not asking for a whole lot. Just pre-2.0 levels of competency. At 1.9 the AI was in a pretty okay spot, at the very least better that it had ever been or has been since.

I don't need or want anything crazy. Literally just an AI with a basic ability to play and succeed at the game. We haven't had that since 1.9. It just so happens that it's worse than ever now.

 

[Todie]

Hello again.

Ive done more tinkering this week on my AI mod DECAI, mostly with AI budgeting; making it dynamic. Im closing on a point where i’ve provided resonable dynamic logic for spending/budgeting where possible (and it seems to work - among other things i have adressed the proclivity for exessive army production /disband @exi123 as well as passive wartime fleets).

I have worked around the no-repair problem same way as @Glavius though i have not added triggers to force building upgrades or replace structures. (So the ai doesnt build tall well)

Im hoping for a sign of life from devs; Q for @Jamor or any devs, is it in reach / any priority to fix AI building replace/upgrade functionality for 2.2.3 ?

(maybe we’ll have word during next week? If no word on these issues, i too might shift to adding trigger workarounds although it may meld poorly otherwise with dynamic budgeting)

Ill release a workshop update for DECAI soon (b4 tuesday?), though equally important, i want to illustrate the things im doing with budgeting and/ or make graph-comparisons. (Being a less popular / comprehensive alternative for AI mod atm, contributing to awarness / discussion is a priority for me now)

The approach im thinking of taking for illustration is DECAI compared to vanilla AI (using dashboard app graphs) + screenshots of budgeting debug-tooltip snapshots, with elaboration and context description. (I aim to compare to GAI mod as well at some point, but its likely less fair/interesting rn because of the building-upgrade thing) Im open for other ideas!

Happy new year yall!

 

[maxp779]

What I want from the AI:

- Be competitive without bonuses. It dosent have to be able to beat the best but at least give a newbie a good thrashing.
- Be able to manage my planets and sectors for me if I choose (like it did pre 2.2! with sectors!)
- Don't get stuck doing nothing. The number of times I've seen a crisis just... get stuck and never expand is just too much.
- Don't do idiotic things that make no sense.

People throw out arguments like the AI dosent sell games etc etc and diplomacy is next. But honestly the more complex this game gets, the more things get added to it the less playable it gets with such a weak AI. The flaws become more and more obvious. At this stage i've been here since 1.0 and been through many DLC's but right now I just want a more playable base game. Honestly idgaf about the next DLC or what it adds because what we currently have needs a lot of work first.

 

[Todie]

What I want from the AI:

- Be competitive without bonuses. It dosent have to be able to beat the best but at least give a newbie a good thrashing.
- Be able to manage my planets and sectors for me if I choose (like it did pre 2.2! with sectors!)
- Don't get stuck doing nothing. The number of times I've seen a crisis just... get stuck and never expand is just too much.
- Don't do idiotic things that make no sense.

People throw out arguments like the AI dosent sell games etc etc and diplomacy is next. But honestly the more complex this game gets, the more things get added to it the less playable it gets with such a weak AI. The flaws become more and more obvious. At this stage i've been here since 1.0 and been through many DLC's but right now I just want a more playable base game. Honestly idgaf about the next DLC or what it adds because what we currently have needs a lot of work first.

Depending on how you define a newbie, and a good trashing, being competitive without any bonuses can be a tall order.

An AI with agressive personality type and/or agressive settings can end up being punishing to earlygame misstakes - especially if modded.

However, a newbie that understands how stellaris economy works is unikely to be wholly trashed by any no-bonuses AI come misgame — at least not without some very bad diplomacy.

The other things i think will be fixed by pdx and/or mods by 2.2.3 release