I feel like Domination doesn't know what it is supposed to be doing. Discovery also feels very meh, with only one powerful bonus (+1 research alternatives) and two alrightish ones (+10% research and +experience gain)
What do you think of the new traditions?
- Thread starter Delthor
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Probably because it was recently changed. I predict it might be changed again. The Domination tree that is. Because as you say "it doesn't know what its supposed to be doing" but then again, does it have to? It's fine to have an all around tree which domination seems to cater after. I think it beams with long lived rulers who can skill up to the caps it offers. Especially if you say have imperial authority. As for housing.... I don't say no to housing, especially as my planet becomes crowded. Crime reduction is ok especially if you get a crime syndicate next door.
Taking a look at Discovery...
I feel the first three buffs are kind of nice if you're trying to get around your early game starter area as quickly as possible. Science ship disengagement chance is a little meme because I honestly don't care for it. I'll just build another science ship if it dies, assign a new scientist and viola. We go exploring again. The survery speed and the anomaly research speed is nice because it means you'll explore the surrounding area faster than anyone else. Which might make the difference of colonizing a planet earlier than someone else. It also saves time.
+20% Anomaly research speed (OK)
+35% Survey speed (OK)
+50% Science ship disengagement chance (meh?)
+10% Research Station Output - I feel this is great for empires with a lot of research stations. Every little technological edge helps!
+1 Research alternatives -Nothing worse than getting a trio of tech cards you don't want. This makes sure you will get more options and more options is good if you're looking for a specific tech.
+2 Scientist level cap - More research speed. All my yes.
+25% Leader experience gain - eh
+1 Leader level cap - ok???? (Anyone notice level caps have been distributed all over the place or am I imagining it?)
-20% Upkeep for pops working with Research - This was never a problem for me but okay. Essentially useless for me but whatever.
+10% Research speed - This doesn't need explaining. This is good by default.
So yeah I think you might be right. Discovery is a bit out there. It's not bad by any stretch of the imagination but it's not this godlike tradition that it used to be. I think all in all, the traditions as they are now have been all made a little boring so none of them are so to speak, OP?
Taking a look at Discovery...
I feel the first three buffs are kind of nice if you're trying to get around your early game starter area as quickly as possible. Science ship disengagement chance is a little meme because I honestly don't care for it. I'll just build another science ship if it dies, assign a new scientist and viola. We go exploring again. The survery speed and the anomaly research speed is nice because it means you'll explore the surrounding area faster than anyone else. Which might make the difference of colonizing a planet earlier than someone else. It also saves time.
+20% Anomaly research speed (OK)
+35% Survey speed (OK)
+50% Science ship disengagement chance (meh?)
+10% Research Station Output - I feel this is great for empires with a lot of research stations. Every little technological edge helps!
+1 Research alternatives -Nothing worse than getting a trio of tech cards you don't want. This makes sure you will get more options and more options is good if you're looking for a specific tech.
+2 Scientist level cap - More research speed. All my yes.
+25% Leader experience gain - eh
+1 Leader level cap - ok???? (Anyone notice level caps have been distributed all over the place or am I imagining it?)
-20% Upkeep for pops working with Research - This was never a problem for me but okay. Essentially useless for me but whatever.
+10% Research speed - This doesn't need explaining. This is good by default.
So yeah I think you might be right. Discovery is a bit out there. It's not bad by any stretch of the imagination but it's not this godlike tradition that it used to be. I think all in all, the traditions as they are now have been all made a little boring so none of them are so to speak, OP?
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Unless you're Empire that have no other means to get influence, but still need a lot of it. Like Hive Minds.
Yeah, Hiveminds are probably the one empire I can see taking Domination on earlier than last. They kind of want to avoid City districts, spam ressouce districts, and bolster their housing with Warrens, which profit from Domination, too.
This is one thing I want to improve, by doing some reorganization to make the different traditions' themes more cohesive. For example, I'm consolidating pretty much all leader improvements into Domination, so it's about having strong leaders, dealing with disorder in the form of crime/clear blockers, and having more influence. The housing and pop production are moved elsewhere to be with more similar bonuses.
The new traditions are OK. I like that there aren't any "pay unity to gain more unity" type of ideas.
Expansion, Prosperity and Adaptability seem to be the most powerful.
Domination is a little too weak because max leader levels bonuses are too weak in this patch. It takes forever to gain levels even with +50% XP gain for leaders, so having +2 governor and +2 ruler levels is worth nothing most of the time.
Supremacy is better (it was a bit too weak before).
Expansion, Prosperity and Adaptability seem to be the most powerful.
Domination is a little too weak because max leader levels bonuses are too weak in this patch. It takes forever to gain levels even with +50% XP gain for leaders, so having +2 governor and +2 ruler levels is worth nothing most of the time.
Supremacy is better (it was a bit too weak before).
I actually think expansion was made even more powerful. It provides a bonus to the most important thing in the game now (pop growth), and also makes starbases cost less influence which is by far the most important resource in the early game. Prior to 2.2, discovery should have always been your first pick. Now I think it would be foolish not to go expansion--> discovery. Prosperity should be third. The reason is you only every hurt for minerals in the first couple years of the game. If you end up hurting for minerals at any other point you've upgraded your buildings too soon... so the mineral bonus from prosperity is really not worth anything at all- it's nice to have, but it's like the survey speed. I wouldn't really miss it if it was gone, and I certainly wouldn't make it my first pick because of it. It's just not important.
Physics and engineering WIP tech trees are available there. You don't need any specific plan, just reach tier 3 without bloating your options and you'll be fine. Very easy to reach and much more useful than habitats, tho needs more planning planetwise.
I like all of them. And unlike 2.1, all trees can serve as openers now depending on the build.
Also the other openers seemed much stronger in 2.1, considering the Anomaly Discovery Chance bonus only boosted the base chance from 5 to... 6%.
In contrast, the strongest bonus really seems to be the extra research option; but only if you're beelining for a certain techs.
Domination also really feel like a Gestalt tree. As the housing bonus to Maintenance Depots (+2) and the -10 Deviancy (Crime is higher for Gestalts... somehow) is much more important than with normal empires. And with no access to trade, getting extra output from power districts/farms matters more, while having no consumer goods means the prosperity specialist bonus is slightly less relevant...
The prosperity bonus sadly doesn't affect amenities...
Also the other openers seemed much stronger in 2.1, considering the Anomaly Discovery Chance bonus only boosted the base chance from 5 to... 6%.
In contrast, the strongest bonus really seems to be the extra research option; but only if you're beelining for a certain techs.
Domination also really feel like a Gestalt tree. As the housing bonus to Maintenance Depots (+2) and the -10 Deviancy (Crime is higher for Gestalts... somehow) is much more important than with normal empires. And with no access to trade, getting extra output from power districts/farms matters more, while having no consumer goods means the prosperity specialist bonus is slightly less relevant...
Faith in Science also reduces the consumer goods upkeep of research labs by 20%. That's pretty good if you're focusing heavily on science.
I never took Expansion as a first pick. Now it is the absolute number 1. the Courier network helps keep early game tech advantage while expanding and the settling bonuses are a must have for megacorp civs.
The Diplomacy tree is also much higher up than it used to be with its trade focus.
The Diplomacy tree is also much higher up than it used to be with its trade focus.
It seems like the consensus is that Expansion, Discovery and Prosperity are almost universally considered the best, especially for early game. There's a bit of disagreement about which of those three beats the others, though Expansion seems to be the favorite a bit more often. Supremacy and Diplomacy are strong, but much more situational. Harmony and Domination are both farther behind.
I feel like Diplomacy and Domination aren't complete wastes of space anymore, so that's nice.
Most of discovery is poor. People just overvalue science. It's quite weak imo as most of the bonuses can be gotten in other places or just don't matter. +1 research alternative is the only thing that really stands out.
There are enough other points of friction on development that teching up early isn't as powerful as it is in other space strategy games, but it's still pretty nice, yanno? Big guns, big admin cap, big habitability bonuses, starting your ring world a couple decades sooner... these aren't things I don't care about.
In my opinion technology is much stronger in 2.2 then before and traditions are much-much weaker. Not because all tradition perks are bad - some of them are awesome really. but you have to take a lot of mediocre ones.
And now about early-mid (first 60-80 years) science:
You'll get +60% planet science, +50% planet minerals/energy/food, +50% space resources and 50% space science.
Also you'll be using building slots much better with high lvl buildings.
Two lvl 1 labs get you 4 jobs
One lvl 1 lab and one gas factory to support it - 10 jobs.
And it's even better then x2.5, because this allow you to make very specialized planets - like 10+ lvl 3 labs + research institute + assisting research + 10% science governor + gene mod only people living here to be super-smart.
previously I though I want discovery\expansion\prosperity first (depending on a strat). then finish [discovery, expansion, prosperity, harmony, supremacy] and the rest are useless and I want them only for ascension perks.
now I like almost all of the tradition trees
expansion imho is a must early on cuz growth is king. and admin cap + reduction of influence cost is nice too. 1 free district from finisher is good too, but since I usually go into voidborne+ascension and have to wait for a tech I leave it for later.
prosperity is also godly - free housing save you minerals early game on building districts, income and reduced upkeep helps you with economy. definitely 1 or 2nd pick for me.
discovery is nice (especially when you wanna roll a specific tech). build a bunch of science ships. pop in map the stars and open discovery for increased research speed later on. (I usually finish it 3-4 though)
harmony is a solid mid game pick where amenities become more of a problem on non-trade worlds. also leader life span and ethics attraction are nice.
domination is also good mid-late game when you start amassing slaves\workers or your leaders will reach the cap. also buff to tile blocker clear(though it's a bit meh) and influence. (I usually save it for later though)
supremacy is very good for wars.. but useless if you're not planning to wage any.
and diplomacy is very nice when you start meeting people(and galactic market is established). but I only saw it on megacorp. so it may be different\useless on a normal empire. not sure.
also food buff is very helpful, cuz with the opening of slave market I usually start buying all the slaves...and apparently they want to eat
now I like almost all of the tradition trees
expansion imho is a must early on cuz growth is king. and admin cap + reduction of influence cost is nice too. 1 free district from finisher is good too, but since I usually go into voidborne+ascension and have to wait for a tech I leave it for later.
prosperity is also godly - free housing save you minerals early game on building districts, income and reduced upkeep helps you with economy. definitely 1 or 2nd pick for me.
discovery is nice (especially when you wanna roll a specific tech). build a bunch of science ships. pop in map the stars and open discovery for increased research speed later on. (I usually finish it 3-4 though)
harmony is a solid mid game pick where amenities become more of a problem on non-trade worlds. also leader life span and ethics attraction are nice.
domination is also good mid-late game when you start amassing slaves\workers or your leaders will reach the cap. also buff to tile blocker clear(though it's a bit meh) and influence. (I usually save it for later though)
supremacy is very good for wars.. but useless if you're not planning to wage any.
and diplomacy is very nice when you start meeting people(and galactic market is established). but I only saw it on megacorp. so it may be different\useless on a normal empire. not sure.
also food buff is very helpful, cuz with the opening of slave market I usually start buying all the slaves...and apparently they want to eat
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Early science is a lot weaker IMO now that there's far less need for tile blocker-removal and most of the building upgrades aren't directly improving your economy (only giving more jobs per building). This means early game science is primarily about better ships and warmongering.
I've been experimenting with completing Domination as my first tree. If only for the +1 influence. That, plus when factions finally open up (for more influence), I think allows a good rate of expansion to cut off competing empires for territory, getting to choke points, and (much) later contributes to edicts and such. Other than the +5% to worker output, the tree is pretty meh. +2 to two different leader caps? Sure... but seems lackluster overall. Crime fighting bonus is terrible imo (+20% crime fighting - not too sure how useful that is). Housing bonus is ok, but not sure about a tradition for it.
I'm not really sure it's worth it, but it's something different in an approach. I have to compare mainly against filling expansion first, with the outpost cost/growth/+1 pop to new colonies. Kind of hurts missing out on that in the early game - but expansion definitely is the next one to fill out.
Discovery is nerfed and a bit boring overall, but it seems to be my number 3 to fill. Then I've been filling out harmony, prosperity, supremacy, and last diplomacy. I like how diplomacy has more utility now, so I may reconsider it a bit. Supremacy seems filled out nicely for perks. Harmony is adequate, but feels eh. Prosperity seems more beneficial towards late gate, but the bonuses are alright... Opener is great for +10% mining station bonus. I think harmony/prosperity need a bit more work, in some manner.
I think a better focus for domination would be good overall - something more to do with 'domination'. Agree with wingren about how it doesn't seem to know what it's doing. It probably needs the most TLC.
I'm not really sure it's worth it, but it's something different in an approach. I have to compare mainly against filling expansion first, with the outpost cost/growth/+1 pop to new colonies. Kind of hurts missing out on that in the early game - but expansion definitely is the next one to fill out.
Discovery is nerfed and a bit boring overall, but it seems to be my number 3 to fill. Then I've been filling out harmony, prosperity, supremacy, and last diplomacy. I like how diplomacy has more utility now, so I may reconsider it a bit. Supremacy seems filled out nicely for perks. Harmony is adequate, but feels eh. Prosperity seems more beneficial towards late gate, but the bonuses are alright... Opener is great for +10% mining station bonus. I think harmony/prosperity need a bit more work, in some manner.
I think a better focus for domination would be good overall - something more to do with 'domination'. Agree with wingren about how it doesn't seem to know what it's doing. It probably needs the most TLC.