What do you think of the new traditions?

[Delthor]

I'm curious what people think of the new 2.2 traditions. What do you think of them overall? What do you take first, early, or avoid? Are any trees too powerful or too underpowered at the moment?

I'm starting to explore modding a bit, starting with tweaking traditions to make them more balanced and provide more meaningful choices. I want to get a bit of a feel for the community's feeling for them instead of relying only on my own experiences.

 

[pryr]

I mostly appreciate that devs removed all "spent unity on more unity" traditions. As fo choices, first time i don't sure what pick order is best. There is no obviously best options anymore.

 

[Alblaka]

Expansion isn't as powerful as it once was. It's still good for any decently sized empire, since it gives Pop Growth speed (the new meta), +1 planet size and if taken early can help colonizing with a free pop and reduced influence cost on starbases.

Domination feels thoroughly meh. The best you can say about it are the +5% worker output and the +1 Influence... but that alone does not justify taking it. At all.

Prosperity is my go to pick, since +10% mining station income is great (early-game mineral income is mostly space-bound, until you find a mineral-deposit-rich planet), the jobs and housing upgrades on city districts are essential (you ALWAYS use City Districts) and +5% specialist output is actually worth something.

Harmony is slightly above meh, given you never really need to pay attention to amenities, especially not if you already have the bonus clerk jobs from Prosperity, Leader Lifespan is kind of nice though and +5 stability is +2.5% overall ressource production, which is great. More of a later pick.

Supremacy has, still, incredibly powerful militaristic modifiers... which is of course only relevant if you intend to go to war. Otherwise just turtle up and outdo the AI economically and it won't bother DoWing you anyways.

Diplomacy is... there. Federations are still icky and mostly a RP thing. The Federation-replacements for Xenophobes are heavily meh (Bombardment Resistance? Really...). Trade value boosts and lowered market fees are actually sort of nifty. If you're a megacorp, this is a must-pick (3rd at latest), otherwise depends on your playstyle.

Discovery is slightly less 'must take first' because it lost the Anomaly Discovery chance, but it still has two significant early-game modifiers (Anomaly Research Speed and Survey Speed), has the amazing Leader Level Cap +1 & +25 Leader experience gain and a great finisher with the +10% research. Definitely a must pick, the only question is whether you grab Prosperity first.


My order is usually:

• Discovery & Prosperity
• Harmony/Expansion/Diplomacy/Supremacy (depending on playstyle)
• Unity Ambitions
• Domination

Overall, I strongly like the changes, if just because they broke up the meta and made all traditions somewhat relevant to different playstyles.
Except Domination.

 

[Serenity84]

Mostly good. It's no longer so obvious what to pick first

The issue is with the too many leader cap modifiers. They are too easy to stack with civics. So anyone can reach 10 (and above even) without much effort. Also makes Transcended Learning pointless

Domination could maybe use a new name now that it's about internal stuff instead of other empires

 

[Lamey]

I think in trying to make all of them appealing to all playstyles it just kind makes them all a bit boring. They all just give general economic efficiencies that will be useful to every playstyle.

We really need an overhaul at some point that makes traditions more like the idea groups in EU4 - give us more than 7 so we're actually choosing which ones we want rather than just the order that we pick them up. Also that way some of them could actually be specialized and meaningfully impact gameplay.

--

I almost always go either discovery or exploration first.

Exploration gives population growth & admin cap, which are both very powerful. There is actually a lot "meh" bonuses in the tree, but 10% pop growth is huge because pop growth is overwhelmingly important in the current patch. To a degree that seems really unfitting to a game that supposedly modelling future societies. (maybe that's the game's 4x heritage showing though)

Discovery gives a ton of great stuff - leader xp, leader level cap, +35% survey speed is great in the early game. The finisher is literally the equal of an ascension perk in itself.

Even in the good trees some of the choices are laughably bad. Like +10% research station output in the discovery tree. That's +10% of (probably) 5% of your research.

 

[Sirbab]

I think in trying to make all of them appealing to all playstyles it just kind makes them all a bit boring. They all just give general economic efficiencies that will be useful to every playstyle.

We really need an overhaul at some point that makes traditions more like the idea groups in EU4 - give us more than 7 so we're actually choosing which ones we want rather than just the order that we pick them up. Also that way some of them could actually be specialized and meaningfully impact gameplay.

--

I almost always go either discovery or exploration first.

Exploration gives population growth & admin cap, which are both very powerful. There is actually a lot "meh" bonuses in the tree, but 10% pop growth is huge because pop growth is overwhelmingly important in the current patch. To a degree that seems really unfitting to a game that supposedly modelling future societies. (maybe that's the game's 4x heritage showing though)

Discovery gives a ton of great stuff - leader xp, leader level cap, +35% survey speed is great in the early game. The finisher is literally the equal of an ascension perk in itself.

Even in the good trees some of the choices are laughably bad. Like +10% research station output in the discovery tree. That's +10% of (probably) 5% of your research.

Regarding your last quote, i'd say that heavily depends on what kind of empire you build. If you don't have many planet/habitat based labs, then stations likely represent a rather large amount of your total science production, like if one is playing wide for instance.

 

[Baro]

For me anyways it's gone from "Some of the choices are incredibly good while others are entirely useless and don't apply to me" to "I'm not really excited about any of these but they at least all in theory maybe apply to my empire"

 

[Lamey]

Regarding your last quote, i'd say that heavily depends on what kind of empire you build. If you don't have many planet/habitat based labs, then stations likely represent a rather large amount of your total science production, like if one is playing wide for instance.

In that case are you producing much science regardless? So far the admin cap has pushed me heavily into playing tall. I haven't had a successful wide game so far in 2.2.

 

[Tindalosihound]

I think Adaptability is my new favourite. The extra building slot is nice, but getting the Planetary Prospecting decision really can help make planets more profitable.

 

[Delthor]

We really need an overhaul at some point that makes traditions more like the idea groups in EU4 - give us more than 7 so we're actually choosing which ones we want rather than just the order that we pick them up. Also that way some of them could actually be specialized and meaningfully impact gameplay.

I agree that such a system would be better overall, but that would require a major overhaul. I do think that they're not in a terrible spot. Which tree you choose first and second affects your approach to early play. My goal will be to deepen and expand that, but not to totally change things. Besides, when ethics, civics, ascension perks, and species traits all have major limits to what you can and cannot choose, I don't think it's awful for one major system to be more about the order than strict exclusion.

For me anyways it's gone from "Some of the choices are incredibly good while others are entirely useless and don't apply to me" to "I'm not really excited about any of these but they at least all in theory maybe apply to my empire"

Is that a good thing or a bad thing?

 

[Xeorm]

I've been doing expansion -> Prosperity -> w/e. Usually discovery next. Expansion for the boost in colony construction, followed by prosperity's just general improvements. I thought of going prosperity second, but it's hard to pass up an easy boost to colonization speed and extra pops. Plus the reduction in influence costs lets me grab more systems quicker. Then prosperity kicking in just as I find myself hurting for raw resources as the colonies mature.

Others are still good though at least. I wouldn't rate any others as first pick material, but that's for other reasons. Supremacy is a really good tree once you're building ships and worrying about a military and Diplomacy's good if you like xenos. The other 3 feel solid. Discovery would feel like a better pick if all the good ones weren't lower in the trees. Survey speed and anomaly speed are both mediocre, but after that it's sweet.

 

[Bouchart]

Discovery, Expansion, and Prosperity remain the strongest openers. Domination lost a lot of its luster, now that you can't use vassals to have a +30% permanent research speed on repeatable techs. Harmony still looks good. Supremacy remains strong if you love war and Diplomacy remains weak.

The best thing they did was remove the traditions that increased unity generation.

 

[Lamey]

I agree that such a system would be better overall, but that would require a major overhaul. I do think that they're not in a terrible spot. Which tree you choose first and second affects your approach to early play. My goal will be to deepen and expand that, but not to totally change things. Besides, when ethics, civics, ascension perks, and species traits all have major limits to what you can and cannot choose, I don't think it's awful for one major system to be more about the order than strict exclusion.

Well that's why I say "At some point". Honestly I wouldn't say that I could argue that a traditions rework should come before a diplomacy rework, an overhaul of the ground combat system, or an expansion of the tech tree. It's not my 3rd or even 4th largest bug-bear with the game.

I have a question for the crowd as it were: Is anyone willing to stand up for harmony? Is there anyone that has a found a use case where harmony is worth taking as at least say... a 4 choice?

---

In regards to Bouchart

Diplomacy is never my first pick, but it's stronger than it looks. The opener give +10% immigration growth. That means when your people immigrate internally they just magically increase by 10% as they do so. Getting extra frisky on the transport over I guess.

Insider Trading is almost as strong as the real thing. If you can manage to get the galactic market and insider trading... in one of my games my leader also got the -5% market fee agenda. Virtually interchangeable resources at that point. (not to mention I just set monthy buy orders for the strategic resources and ran all fully upgraded buildings on my colonies)

Also, I'm going to save myself a few paragraphs and just say they "unf***ed federations". I mean, it would be nice if they AI built something other than corvettes for my fleet, but at least those corvettes are my design.

 

[the glory of plain]

Expansion isn't as powerful as it once was. It's still good for any decently sized empire, since it gives Pop Growth speed (the new meta), +1 planet size and if taken early can help colonizing with a free pop and reduced influence cost on starbases.

Domination feels thoroughly meh. The best you can say about it are the +5% worker output and the +1 Influence... but that alone does not justify taking it. At all.

Prosperity is my go to pick, since +10% mining station income is great (early-game mineral income is mostly space-bound, until you find a mineral-deposit-rich planet), the jobs and housing upgrades on city districts are essential (you ALWAYS use City Districts) and +5% specialist output is actually worth something.

Harmony is slightly above meh, given you never really need to pay attention to amenities, especially not if you already have the bonus clerk jobs from Prosperity, Leader Lifespan is kind of nice though and +5 stability is +2.5% overall ressource production, which is great. More of a later pick.

Supremacy has, still, incredibly powerful militaristic modifiers... which is of course only relevant if you intend to go to war. Otherwise just turtle up and outdo the AI economically and it won't bother DoWing you anyways.

Diplomacy is... there. Federations are still icky and mostly a RP thing. The Federation-replacements for Xenophobes are heavily meh (Bombardment Resistance? Really...). Trade value boosts and lowered market fees are actually sort of nifty. If you're a megacorp, this is a must-pick (3rd at latest), otherwise depends on your playstyle.

Discovery is slightly less 'must take first' because it lost the Anomaly Discovery chance, but it still has two significant early-game modifiers (Anomaly Research Speed and Survey Speed), has the amazing Leader Level Cap +1 & +25 Leader experience gain and a great finisher with the +10% research. Definitely a must pick, the only question is whether you grab Prosperity first.


My order is usually:

• Discovery & Prosperity
• Harmony/Expansion/Diplomacy/Supremacy (depending on playstyle)
• Unity Ambitions
• Domination

Overall, I strongly like the changes, if just because they broke up the meta and made all traditions somewhat relevant to different playstyles.
Except Domination.

the best one in domination are 1 housing for housing building
so resource planet don't need city district

 

[Delthor]

I have a question for the crowd as it were: Is anyone willing to stand up for harmony? Is there anyone that has a found a use case where harmony is worth taking as at least say... a 4 choice?

I've used it as a second choice.

I suppose I should share my preferences, too. I almost always go discovery first to get the tech options and exploration rolling as fast as possible. I want to know exactly what's around me so I can decide where and how far to expand.

Second is either expansion if I'm intending to expand pretty wide early or harmony if I'm likely to turtle more.

 

[Fox McCloud]

I still feel discovery holds the edge over all the others if you're even slightly concerned about research. That said, it's far less useful now if you're not really interested in doing much research (probably a good thing).

Prosperity feels incredibly strong, right now; it has so many boosts that are useful for so many empires, that I feel it's hard to ignore now as a sooner, rather than later pick.

Harmony, while typically my second pick (if only for the leader lifespan increase), is a bit meh now, though the territory fire rate, leader lifespan, and especially finisher are good.

Domination feels really bad now, with the exception of the finisher effect.

 

[Less2]

Expansion > All for peaceful development. Influence is the main limiter for going wide, pop growth is the main limiter for going tall. Rest of the traditions are decent, though the finisher is useless until the mid game.

Supremacy is still obviously the thing for conquest, and conquest is even more powerful now that you can conquer 40+ pop homeworlds rather than colonize with single pops. Enjoy +80% firerate. If you can get another developed homeworld early on you'll easily run away with the game.

Prosperity is alright. Unfortunately the merchant job and extra housing are basically only useful in the mid game, so you're really only getting 10% mining and 5% specialists if you go here first. Good 2nd or 3rd pick.

Domination is in a similar bag as Prosperity. Housing? No reason to need more until you've maxed a planet. Leader cap? Yeah, your leaders aren't level 5 already in the first decade or two. So you're really taking it for 5% workers and 1 influence. Also a good 2nd or 3rd pick, I'd rate it slightly above Prosperity if only because mining stations are kind of crap now.

Harmony... 5% stability is +3% to all production. That's pretty nice. Food consumption probably does less than it looks since you'll be either the policy to increase consumption or the decision to do the same, which isn't covered. Reducing pop amenities usage indirectly boosts happiness and therefore production, I believe by about 1%. So Harmony boils down to +20 year lifespan and +4% all production. I don't think it's too bad. I haven't taken it 2nd, but I don't see a reason it wouldn't be OK.

Diplomacy... Nope. Hate federations or anything to do with dealing with the AI in a capacity other than conquest. YMMV.

Discovery: Basically nothing worthwhile here except +1 research alternative and +10% research rate. When someone figures out the tech tree it might be viable for a very early beeline to Ecumenopolis. Still, comparable to other 2nd picks.


TL;DR: Expansion or Supremacy first, then it's a fairly open field.

 

[Badesumofu]

Opening with Expansion seems like a no-brainer in most scenarios. The bonuses are well suited to early game and kick-start your growth quite nicely. Discovery seems like a good second choice. The bonuses to leader levels aren't going to really help until that point anyway. Diplomacy has an appealing opener now that Research Pacts and NAPs cost influence, along with commercial pacts.

As an aside, I like that the xenophile playstyle now actually benefits significantly from Xenophile governing ethics.

 

[Mikhail_Mengsk]

Never really liked the vanilla traditions anyway, but i think their "priorities" haven't changed much. Early enemies? Supremacy. Want to focus tech? Discovery. etc etc etc

 

[Dug]

I found adaptability which replaces the diplomacy tradition tree to be interesting. Though as I usually play fanatic authoritarian/something I can fess up and say that Domination is the first thing I pick. Mainly because you already get mad buffs from picking Fanatic Authoritarian on resource collection so why not round it up as much as 15%. That's already an advantage that increases with researchable techs in the game, not to mention slaver guilds and slaver buildings whose name I cannot recall. In a game I'm playing with a friend right now I'm basically an economic monster and I have less planets than him just based on these buffs. Though Prosperity has become a default pick right after Domination, for more of those economic buffs of course.

Coincidentally that game is paused right now as Stratified Society for authoritharian factions seems to be bugged. No matter what policies I set these people are unhappy. (???)

Regardless I've sort of found it easier to specialize in this update if that makes sense? For instance the Commonwealth of Man militarized sort of playstyle with supremacy and distinguished admiralty civic makes it fairly advantageous in terms of early game fleets. Wouldn't know for later as I haven't played that far.

If you want to go for research the recent sort of more public admin cap makes it easier to play tall by staying under the admin cap, building research labs, assisting research, finding curators, unlocking the discovery tree and getting the right traditions/traits/civics.

Technically I feel specializing in a certain playstyle has become a thing and I never find myself needing to go claim 10 planets from an alien empire to become an economic superpower. Which is what I usually prefer to be.