What do you feel is the worst idea group in 1.8?

[CaptainChiatrol]

What do you feel is the worst idea group in 1.8?

I've been toying around with espionage and I like it's effects and how things interact with a long term Sabotage Reputation on how people interact with a nation if I'm persistent with it.

I only took naval once. I imagine with mothballing making real fleets of ships more reasonable to keep during peacetime I still felt like I'd get more out of other idea groups that touch on navy a bit but don't focus on it or maritime which also has a large trade application and unlocks some neat decisions. Naval feels like the weakest one to me but I wonder what is popularly considered the worst on in the current state of the game.

I understand there are special cases and even navel might be ok if you are the British islands where dominance in the sea can make your land completely unreachable but the other special case idea groups tend to be more necessary for their case (Expansion & Exploration where you just can't colonize without them but never need them if you don't want to colonize.)

 

[Rey]

Either espionage, naval or maritime.

 

[AP85]

I've pretty much never used Influence, Espionage, Humanist, Maritime, Admin, Plutocratic, or Economic. I also think Religious is pretty overrated.

I use Diplo, Trade, Off, Def, and Quantity pretty much every playthrough.

 

[Squirrelloid]

Naval is almost certainly the worst, although Maritime isn't much better. Number of ships still strictly dominates naval combats, to the point that leaders and bonuses are pretty much irrelevant. Morale rarely matters. The only thing Maritime has going for it, relative to naval, is the ability to unlock the Thalassocracy decision, and even that isn't terribly good.

Trade was severely hurt by WoN's trade companies, that made merchants far too easy to get. (This also hurts Thalassocracy and diminishes the power of Maritime). Without WoN, trade is a lot more useful. The increased ability to drag trade to end nodes from the Americas and Africa in 1.8 further devalued trade. So I tend to find trade highly situational, and even worse after 1.8 than it was before. (It's still clearly better than Naval or Maritime...)

 

[Hopit]

Either espionage, naval or maritime.

One of these for me.

 

[Schmoekoeksklok]

Espionage and Naval are the only ones I will never take, everything else is at least occasionally worthwhile.

 

[MeatPirate]

You didn't specify SP/MP, but in SP the three you mentioned have very little value.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

I've pretty much never used Influence, Espionage, Humanist, Maritime, Admin, Plutocratic, or Economic. I also think Religious is pretty overrated.

I use Diplo, Trade, Off, Def, and Quantity pretty much every playthrough.

Influence + diplomatic = always able to annex vassals reasonably quickly, even if you have the rep hit from annexing one, and reduces the cost overall. Religious is good now because of how it lets you add provinces to your vassals w/o DIP.

Trade is redundant for many SP starts, I almost never use it because it's not hard to conquer enough land where money isn't a problem before finishing 2 idea groups, sometimes before 1, and most areas of the world are in reach of a strong node. The only time I've ever used it was as a Siberian tribe recently, because it's the #1 top military idea group for them early on (you have a naval FL of 3 or 4, but trade adds 15 through the merchants meaning you can stack galleys and conquer Japan and Yeren using straits).

I'm with you on diplo and quantity.

Either espionage, naval or maritime.

Espionage isn't so good in SP, but I'd take it mid-late in MP to broker information with a locked ledger and for its military use against humans, being able to see their fleets and forces no matter where they try to set them up. Fog peaking a war enemy with it is hard to quantify in terms of utility, and it has a few okay policies too. Naval and maritime are similarly crucial in MP where people might apply basic thought to fighting. Having a navy large enough to land stacks that can assault to occupy + load up again is a big screw job especially now that you can't accept rebel demands. That really roots you because if you try marching your army anywhere you get a few provinces assault-occupied by a collection of junk infantry.

In SP, all 3 are trash tier and you can take your pick of which "don't use this" idea group is actually worst.

 

[lougarou]

Religious is good now because of how it lets you add provinces to your vassals w/o DIP.

How is that? I do not see which of the Religious Ideas would do that...

 

[AP85]

Influence + diplomatic = always able to annex vassals reasonably quickly, even if you have the rep hit from annexing one, and reduces the cost overall. Religious is good now because of how it lets you add provinces to your vassals w/o DIP.

Trade is redundant for many SP starts, I almost never use it because it's not hard to conquer enough land where money isn't a problem before finishing 2 idea groups, sometimes before 1, and most areas of the world are in reach of a strong node. The only time I've ever used it was as a Siberian tribe recently, because it's the #1 top military idea group for them early on (you have a naval FL of 3 or 4, but trade adds 15 through the merchants meaning you can stack galleys and conquer Japan and Yeren using straits).

I'm with you on diplo and quantity.

I don't really find that annexing vassals ever takes that long, although I rarely let them get bigger than 5 or 6 provinces. I'm usually big on racking up huge stacks of cash through trade, and I usually end up tearing up the HRE, so getting those extra merchants from Trade and the steering bonuses is very sexy. Then again, I'm more of an intermediate player. I don't worry too much about AE or coalitions, those are just part of the fun for me.

 

[Rainbow Mirage]

How is that? I do not see which of the Religious Ideas would do that...

First idea. Deus Vult.

 

[AP85]

First idea. Deus Vult.

Can you explain this a little more? I understand that you get a permanent CB, but how can you just hand them over to your vassals for free as a result? Why don't you have to core them first?

 

[Magean]

Can you explain this a little more? I understand that you get a permanent CB, but how can you just hand them over to your vassals for free as a result? Why don't you have to core them first?

Occupy your opponent's provinces -> transfer occupation to your vassals -> demand these provinces in peace deal for your vassals. With the Holy War CB, they won't cost you any dip point in the peace deal.

 

[IIWW]

Can you explain this a little more? I understand that you get a permanent CB, but how can you just hand them over to your vassals for free as a result? Why don't you have to core them first?

This CB allows alaiming any land for free dip.

 

[StatikShocker]

espionage
maritime

naval
aristocratic

economic
administrative

there are only 13 trees worth getting (other than some super niche situations)

 

[wingzero890]

espionage
maritime

naval
aristocratic

economic
administrative

there are only 13 trees worth getting (other than some super niche situations)

Admin is one of the strongest idea groups in the game because of the reduced coring cost, and economic is also fairly strong plus unlocks a +5% discipline policy.

 

[saegoto]

epionage. it has only one things: infiltrade administration, rest are pretty useless.

maritime, naval, since number of heavy ships only matters. combat ability, durability, naval morale will not help you in combats.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

Aristocratic and administrative are not niche trees. Administrative is easily the best reform tech for hordes and many tribals for example, especially hordes where the early merc stuff + no cost for reinforcing mercs is valuable but it's also good on nations like Ottomans. Aristocratic is the most useful of the military groups for a European WC, dumping MIL to get a diplomat, another general, -WE cost, and useful policies that funnel MIL into non-MIL applications while still having current miltech and extra shock generals.

maritime, naval, since number of heavy ships only matters. combat ability, durability, naval morale mean crap.

Spoken like a player looking to get blown out of the water.

Naval leader maneuver + extra durability = your ships drop like flies due to better focusing and less durability, and as they sink fleet does less damage.

In SP, overwhelming #s wins. In MP, fighting someone with enough naval trad to slap on a strong admiral on buffed heavies (with more FL to afford them) is an invitation to be massacred at sea.

 

[Umbosch]

Occupy your opponent's provinces -> transfer occupation to your vassals -> demand these provinces in peace deal for your vassals. With the Holy War CB, they won't cost you any dip point in the peace deal.

I understand this plan but i have sometimes a problem. At the peace deal the transfered region is grey. My vasall tell me, that he not want that i deal for him (vasall has a claim at this province) and i can't make no rollback of the transfer.

 

[RobRoy3]

I understand this plan but i have sometimes a problem. At the peace deal the transfered region is grey. My vasall tell me, that he not want that i deal for him (vasall has a claim at this province) and i can't make no rollback of the transfer.

Double check that you have the AoW DLC. And that it is active.