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Marshall Thomas

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I am playing my first ever game of EU2 as Austria in the 1419 grand campaign. Now it is the 1450's and my economy(especially production and trade) is almost non existant. My question is what do players do when they have a very poor economy and they are at peace for a long time? As the days and months are moving by what should I be doing?
 

Hallsten

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I do anything to improve my economy and defenses. I also look everywhere for good allies and future vassals.
If the game is really slow I put on a movie or series on the telly to pass the time.
 

DSYoungEsq

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Marshall Thomas said:
I am playing my first ever game of EU2 as Austria in the 1419 grand campaign. Now it is the 1450's and my economy(especially production and trade) is almost non existant. My question is what do players do when they have a very poor economy and they are at peace for a long time? As the days and months are moving by what should I be doing?
Hmm, if you are Austria in the mid-1400's, you have two things to do:

1. Prepare for the inheritances.

2. Force-vassalize and then diplo-annex German minors.

As for your economy, it should not be almost existant. You already have enough provinces to be able to put together a reasonable amount of yearly income. Are you keeping your maintenance sliders to 50% during peace? Are you investing solely in Infrastructure technology? Tax Collectors promoted in each of your provinces? Domestic Policy sliders moved with 4 clicks to help you in the cost of technology or the efficiency of production?
 

Marshall Thomas

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I am investing soley in infrastructure technology. Is this a mistake? What should I do to prepare for inheritances? Fortress defences seem way to expensive for my Austria. I've also been getting in trouble with interest on loans. Ever since my war with Burgundy and her allies ended my annual activities have been almost nothing. I do not know what I can do during peacetime. I know that EU2 is not simply a wargame, but right now it seems that way.
 

Emp_Palpatine

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Well? Actually, you shall not only invest in one sector only. If you are Austria, you can spare naval invests, but spare money while ignoring land research is very risky. :)

During peace time, I colonize when I can, I do a lot of diplomacy and trade and, of course, military build up.
I forgot manufactories and promotion in provinces.
 

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like someone already said, diploannex your way into germany, if you dont want to do that then get in an alliance at the very least, save up and build manufacturies and all the other stuff that infra gives you when discovered, if you have a decent trade %, then you can do that.
 

Emp_Palpatine

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Marshall Thomas said:
when they have a very poor economy and they are at peace for a long time?
Promote the structures (ie Baillifs etc) if you are able to do so. Trade and if you are able to do so, you can build up manufactories.
Oh, and spare the money of army, put "supplies*" at 50% (I forgot that word... It's in "army" and "navy" menu)
 

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Marshall Thomas said:
I am investing soley in infrastructure technology. Is this a mistake?
No, as Infrastructure technology will give you acces to build manufactories, which can give a boost of 12 d if built in the correct province, and also other nice benefits.
Marshall Thomas said:
What should I do to prepare for inheritances? Fortress defences seem way to expensive for my Austria. I've also been getting in trouble with interest on loans. Ever since my war with Burgundy and her allies ended my annual activities have been almost nothing. I do not know what I can do during peacetime. I know that EU2 is not simply a wargame, but right now it seems that way.
Why are you getting loans?
Loans should (IMHO) be avoided at nearly all costs, as they can absolutely ruin the finances of any small nation.
 

unmerged(19088)

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Marshall Thomas said:
I am investing soley in infrastructure technology. Is this a mistake? What should I do to prepare for inheritances? Fortress defences seem way to expensive for my Austria. I've also been getting in trouble with interest on loans. Ever since my war with Burgundy and her allies ended my annual activities have been almost nothing. I do not know what I can do during peacetime. I know that EU2 is not simply a wargame, but right now it seems that way.

It's good to invest in infrastructure, but while investing soley in one sector for a long time might give you an advantage over other countries in that sector, you'll probably fall behind in the others, additionally, the cost for developing high-techs before it's "historical" date gives you a penalty.. say if you get "revolutionary" lvl 60 army-tech during the 17th century (I don't know if it's even possible) that would give you an exceptionally large penalty, tech-cost... instead of using "5" you might end up spending "10"... (you'll get an advantage over your enemies though, so in certain situations, it's a good strategy..)

Taking loans is good if you take one at a time.. taking multiple only gives you large interests, which is a good way to ruin your economy... As long as you'e invested in Taxcollectors in every province, and are on your way in infra (and trade), your economy should be good.

Austria will inherit Burgundy in the 1470/80s, this will give you a host of rich provs, hopefully all eight of the "Lowlands", and possibly some more.. your next inheritance is the Hungarian, which will happen in the 1520/40s.. your best way to "prepare" for Hungary is to help them not to lose provinces.. so if you're allies (or at least not enemies) things are well.. you'll also inherit Bohemia (maybe before Hungary)... there you have some good, right culture/religion provs... some of the Hungarian provs may be poor, with wrong culture and religion.., but if your goal is to dominate Europe, you should accept them too..

I guess you're quite OFFENSIVE, so forts become expencive.. that's not very lucky, but if you manage to take advantage of the OFFENSIVE bonuses, moral etc. it could very well be worth it.. a good strategy if you want both cheap forts and good morale-armies is to go for QUALITY and LAND. If you do that it's ok to go low on OFFENSIVENESS.

Austria isn't actually the colonial type, so going LAND is ok (going low on LAND improves trade and gives colonists)

You should easily be able to dominate Europe, just wait for the inheritances, ally with Spain versus France, and keep on forcevassalizing-diploannexing the germans...

good luck

(also remember not to mint coins (investing in treasury in your budget), and keep army/fleet maintenance on 50% in peace... or else these two can be nasty, raising your inflation and drawing money)
 

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I think you all might be giving him advice ahead of schedule. Remember, Austria in 1450 is a five province (in vanilla/1.08b) splotch, and even smaller in some of the mods. They are nowhere near superpower status at this time.

Marshall: It sounds like those loans are killing you. The first thing we need to do is get your economy going. I'll reiterate what some others said:

Reset army and navy (if you have one) maintenance to 50%. If you are over the army support limit, disband units to get below that level.

Determine which of your provinces have tax collectors. You will want to take care of that ASAP, but right now your first and only priority is getting these loans off of your back, especially if they've been renewed at all. The interest is lethal. You could always just let it go and declare bankruptcy, but that hurts your morale and (I believe) stability for years to come. On the other hand, if your loans are exceptionally serious you might have no choice.

LOOK at the Venice Center of Trade. If it's full up (20 merchants), then you may as well skip it for awhile. You'll lose more money going in than you'd get out of it before your merchant was forced out.

There are two schools of thought on technology: One is to pick two or three things you care about (infra, land, maybe trade) and distribute percentages from there. Another is to focus entirely on one (infra) and get that up a little bit before switching to something else. The latter tends to be more efficient, but results in you lagging in say.. land technology. Personally I mint to get at least close to 0 ducats lost per month. That probably isn't as efficient, but it's also saved me from some nasty surprises. (If you have to pull the indicator too far to the right to achieve this, then pull it back to the left for now. It'll just cause your inflation to spiral out of control.)

Don't get in any more wars for awhile. Not even any 1 province minors. Get your economy under control and then you can start sniffing around again. Get yourself into a powerful alliance (or better, START a powerful alliance) and just hang out. This sounds like a time for discretion.

Now open your economy summary, and see whether you're positive or negative cashflow. If negative you either need to disband more troops, chance it on adding merchants, or just let yourself go bankrupt. If positive ... sit back and watch. Do nothing, let the game play itself ... or get into a lot of royal marriages to help decrease the likelihood you're going to get jumped.

If and when you get to 147..8 I think (1474-1478, somewhere around there), Burgundy MAY get inherited by Austria. It is not a guarantee, but if it goes off you pick up some rich provinces. At that point it'll be time to reexamine your economy. In theory, again no guarantees, you can also pick up Milan (1480s?), Bohemia (1526) and Hungary (1540). All without fighting. Were I you I'd play it cautious until then...no sense fighting a battle as a 5 province twit when you can wait a few years and fight the same battle as a 40 province superblob.
 

DSYoungEsq

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1. Who the heck worries about falling behind in Land Tech in 1450?? You don't fight straight-up battles with the AI countries then anyway, so who cares if you fall behind a CRT level? Invest in Infrastructure 100%. Get to Infra 5 as soon as possible (I guarantee you won't likely "beat" the Ahead of Time Penalty date on this, so don't worry about it). Then promote all mayors to Governors. This will give you inflation free treasury cash, whereupon you can start working at upgrading through military action. Since you are not a colonizer, you don't really need LT 5 that quickly (assaults won't be that important), and if anyone tells you it is important to get LT 7 for artillery, tell them artillery aren't worth the money for at least the first 25 levels or so (if then!). Investing in Land Tech in 1450 is just plain a waste of effort.

2. Austria has three main inheritance events it looks forward to. First, in the late 1400's, it can inherit the Lowlands, as well as some Rhineland provinces held by the Duchy of Burgundy. Austria isn't totally in control of this, but there are things you can do to make it more likely to happen. If you want to know what to do, peek into the Event file for BUR.

Second, in the early 1500's, it inherits Bohemia. This is almost a guaranteed event. Bohemia is a great gain, though to be at its best for you, you do need to convert provinces to Catholic, since Bohemia was riddled with Hussites, an early Protestant sect. By the way, it is good to ally with Bohemia so you can defend it against predation by Poland and Brandenburg.

Third, in 1540, you inherit Hungary, or, at least, portions of Hungary. The Ottomans can get a fairly hefty chunk, too, so again, if you want to know how to maximize the issue, peruse the event files for Bohemia, Austria and the Ottomans (TUR).

To get an idea how this will make your country look, switch to the political mapmode and imagine Bohemia, Burgundy and Hungary in White. Big White Blob. :D

3. If you are experiencing negative cash flow on a monthly basis, there are only two possible reasons: Army maintenance that is too high, and loan interest. You can't do much about loan interest except pay off the loans as they come due, or force yourself into bankruptcy. But you can always do something about maintenance.

First, and I said this before, make certain your maintenance level is at 50% when not at war. All maintenance does is increase your troops' morale, and that is only key when fighting. Chuck the slider all the way left and leave it there until you have to fight.

Second, never have any more troops on hand than you can afford. You can see how much each 1000 infantry and each 1000 cavalry are costing you in the land army information window (hover the pointer over the numbers and it is broken down for you). Disband troops that are costing you too much. You MUST have positive cash flow on a net yearly basis; your goal with loans is to make enough each year to be able to pay the 200d when the loan is due. Take your yearly census tax, subtract the amount you want yourself to save yearly, and then divide the remainder by 12. That is your ideal monthly budget for troop costs and loan interest. If you must keep more troops on hand than you can afford under that calculation, then you have to "mint" money by moving the "To Treasury" slider to the right enough to add ducats to the Treasury sufficient to cover your needs.

There is a caveat to troop levels: your potential enemies judge whether or not to declare war upon you primarily based upon your troop strength. If it falls too low, they pounce like hungry sharks.

To avoid this, you need to be in a good, strong, alliance. Then, the decision by your enemies to go to war is based upon the combined power of your alliance, and AI countries are great at keeping tons of troops on hand. The downside is that your alliance partners may get you involved in wars you don't want, but often you can just sit them out by refusing to increase maintenance or troop levels, unless the opponents come knocking at your door. :)

4. Ignore trade. You are at a level where you can't afford the cost of the merchants, you don't have the trade efficiency of your southern neighbors Venice and Genoa (not to mention Portugal), and there are tons of countries sending traders to all the good Centers of Trade. End result? You spend money wastefully trying to keep your poor merchants in Centers of Trade. Other than a presence in Veneto (which costs very little), and the occasional attempt to insert a trader into an "empty slot" in another European CoT, don't bother with this. Wait until you have 4 or 5 refineries, your Trade investment is substantial, you have yourself with a trade efficiency to rival most of Europe, THEN become a trading giant. :)

5. Inflation is not a bad thing. You may well have to accept some to avoid bankruptcy. It makes it harder on you in the long run, but it beats being unable to field troops. Somewhere between .10% and .20% per year is perfectly acceptable. You will laugh about inflation when you get to Infra 5 and experience yearly deflation. :)
 

LlywelynII

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Marsh said:
I've also been getting in trouble with interest on loans.

While it might be appealing to mimic the historical mistakes of the Habsburg monarchs, King of Minors and CatKnight are right and mhusoy is very wrong: there are few excuses for taking any loans (and those all involve war and don't apply.) Drop your supply sliders to 50%* - when you move it back to 100, your troops will strangely be good to go at the beginning of the next month - and if you can't put a tax collector in every province and pay off your loans with your end-of-year income, MINT. Getting rid of high-interest loans is far more important than inflation.

If you still can't pay off those loans, consider a short war against one of your poorly-allied neighbors solely to raise money. Even Hungary, if it's occupied and you can control Pest quickly enough, is good for a quick payday - obviously, Venice is better if you can make it over the straits.

Once you're out of crisis mode, live within your means. Once you reach the point where you can make 30•/mo on full mint, build yourself some manufactories. With due respect to some of the other posters, Austria's never going to have an easy time of colonizing and it's not really worth it. Stay HRE, play diplomacy, keep the French from getting too strong if you can help it.

eu2 isn't only a war game, but if it is a territory game. If you aren't playing for domination by war or diplomacy, really the fun is in AARing and role playing - taking satisfaction out of unserfing your population, eg, and being able to ride out the events of Austrian history.

Keeping your mint slider to 0•/mo. a la CatKnight really isn't efficient, but you should prolly keep a good 100 or 250• on hand as a rainy day fund.

jay.

*Incidentally, as long as you fight your wars on your home turf or with other Alpine forces, you won't have any use for cavalry and infantry is cheap. Consider disbanding some of your army. Remember, though, that a weak standing army will encourage the AI to attack you on the higher aggression levels.

EDIT: DSYoungEsq beat me to most of the good advice :) Listen to him about trade and land tech. If you really need to win a war in the low tech levels, defend in the mountains with infantry or offend in the plains with cav - otherwise, it's all very random. Lucky for you HAB gets insane good generalship.
 
Last edited:

DSYoungEsq

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Cavalry is always the better way to fight up to about LT 18, regardless of terrain. One look at the power values for cavalry versus the power values for infantry makes this clear. And until you hit LT 7 (or your opponents do), you don't even GET a fire phase, so shock is all there is, baby! :cool:

Cavalry is, however, expensive. You have to worry about the cost of producing and maintaining them. If you are cash poor, infantry is always the better alternative. You should avoid pitched battles anyway. :)
 

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DSYoungEsq said:
[warmongering crud]

He said he wanted to know how to live peacefully! :)

OTOH, like I mentioned, depending on how bad your finances are and how rich Hungary is, cavalry might be your most profitable investment. ;) It's worthless against all your neighbors in the swamps and alps though, at any tech level...
jay.
 

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In the time between 1419 and the 1450's, Portugal's center of trade(Tago) increased in value at a phenomenal rate as a result of exploration/expansion. In just 30 years it's value rose over 100 ducats to surpass even the CoT of Venice. Luckily I had been sending my merchants there since the campaign began and I had spend a long time just below the monopoly satus, which is as high as my trade tech level would allow. But despite the extreme economical growth of Tago, I am making less money than I am spending on sending merchants to Tago. It isn't really that merchants are expensive(5 ducats) but rather that the multiplier at trade tech 1 leaves me with almost no profit. I understand that trade tech 1 makes trade profits almost impossible, but at the pace I am going I will not reach a high trade tech until maybe 1600. Is this historically accurate? Did countries (like Austria) fail to make any profits in international trade until the 17th century? Or is it that the nation I have chosen to play cannot trade in the 1400's or 1500's? If I had picked Portugal, Venice, or Genoa would I have a chance to be successfull at trade as the game began in 1419? I even considered using the cheat that increases your trade technology so that my merchants could be active in the 15th century. Thanks everyone for your advice so far -it has been very helpfull.
 

DSYoungEsq

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Llywelyn said:
He said he wanted to know how to live peacefully! :)

OTOH, like I mentioned, depending on how bad your finances are and how rich Hungary is, cavalry might be your most profitable investment. ;) It's worthless against all your neighbors in the swamps and alps though, at any tech level...
jay.
You make a mistake here. There is no malus against cavalry alone in such terrain; the malus applies to the roll for all troops. In other words, even a totally infantry army attacking into the mountains is given the same malus as a totally cavalry army. And there is no malus for a totally cavalry army defending in the mountains, any more than for a totally infantry army. And the swamp malus applies to both sides of the battle (forests are the same) equally regardless of army composition.

In plains and desert, of course, there is a cavalry bonus applied, which is absent in the other three terrains, but it doesn't go the other way around. :)
 

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Marshall Thomas said:
In the time between 1419 and the 1450's, Portugal's center of trade(Tago) increased in value at a phenomenal rate as a result of exploration/expansion. In just 30 years it's value rose over 100 ducats to surpass even the CoT of Venice. Luckily I had been sending my merchants there since the campaign began and I had spend a long time just below the monopoly satus, which is as high as my trade tech level would allow. But despite the extreme economical growth of Tago, I am making less money than I am spending on sending merchants to Tago. It isn't really that merchants are expensive(5 ducats) but rather that the multiplier at trade tech 1 leaves me with almost no profit. I understand that trade tech 1 makes trade profits almost impossible, but at the pace I am going I will not reach a high trade tech until maybe 1600. Is this historically accurate? Did countries (like Austria) fail to make any profits in international trade until the 17th century? Or is it that the nation I have chosen to play cannot trade in the 1400's or 1500's? If I had picked Portugal, Venice, or Genoa would I have a chance to be successfull at trade as the game began in 1419? I even considered using the cheat that increases your trade technology so that my merchants could be active in the 15th century. Thanks everyone for your advice so far -it has been very helpfull.
As I said don't worry about Trade income. Austria is never a trading nation. To be a true trading nation, you need to colonize, so you can monopolize the incomes of your trading posts and colonies around the world. In Europe, everyone gets lost in the shuffle.

Infrastructure, infrastructure, infrastructure. Oh, and more infrastructure. :)
 

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DSYoungEsq said:
You make a mistake here. There is no malus against cavalry alone in such terrain; the malus applies to the roll for all troops. In other words, even a totally infantry army attacking into the mountains is given the same malus as a totally cavalry army. And there is no malus for a totally cavalry army defending in the mountains, any more than for a totally infantry army. And the swamp malus applies to both sides of the battle (forests are the same) equally regardless of army composition.

In plains and desert, of course, there is a cavalry bonus applied, which is absent in the other three terrains, but it doesn't go the other way around. :)
Ooh, I think I will use more cavalry.
What about artillery? (feel free to direct me to another thread where the numbers are displayed.)
 

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King of Minors said:
Ooh, I think I will use more cavalry.
What about artillery? (feel free to direct me to another thread where the numbers are displayed.)
For the numbers, look at the [thread=162087]Battle System FAQ v1.08[/thread]

Unfortunately, the Combat Power graphs link is no longer working. And it wasn't up to date, anyway.

Artillery don't really do you much good until LT 31. To see why, look at the shock power value of a "unit" of cavalry (actually, for reasons I can't figure, the power value seems to be for every .1 of a unit, but whatever...). At LT 0, this is already 400. It stays at 400 until LT 31, when it goes to 420. It never goes above 450, and by the Dentelles era (LT 51), it is back to 400. Cavalry never has a fire power value of more than a piddling amount. So all told, each unit of cavalry has the same "power" the whole game.

Artillery start with no value at all. They don't gain any real power until LT 10, when they are at 100. Notice that that is only 1/4 the value for cavalry, though applied in the fire phase, not the shock phase. But infantry have shock power of 100 at the same time, and by LT 18, infantry are contributing essentially the same power in both phases; thus they are half as powerful as cavalry.

At LT 31 (when you get new sprites!), you see artillery finally start to come into its own. Fire power of 400 puts it level with cavalry. Infantry is still mired in a combined fire+shock power of about 250, so artillery are more deadly at this point. By the Dentelles era (LT 51), artillery have accelerated to being twice as powerful (800) as cavalry, and infantry never manage more than 450 combined.

The trouble with artillery, of course, is its lack of mobility. When you are trying to catch a moving army, they hold you back. Thus, their primary function remains twofold:

1. Defense of a province where they remain stationary, and

2. Assault of large fortresses during siege efforts.