What do Pops Represent?: Gameplay Mechanics and Historical Simulation Discussion

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Bovrick

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Just remove fremeen political power (or at least greatly reduce it) and make their contribution to levy rely on a law not yet passed by eg Rome and I'd be happy tbh. Then citizens are what theyre supposed to be and fremeen are what theyre supposed to be. Then alter their economic contribution for balance.

Or make levies moddable, political power is and I hope levies will be too.
Political Citizenship is determined by the Cultural Integration status, and this gates elligibility for the Levy. The Freeman class should absolutely be contributing to this if they have political rights.
 

Valentinius

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Political Citizenship is determined by the Cultural Integration status, and this gates elligibility for the Levy. The Freeman class should absolutely be contributing to this if they have political rights.
It also just means that pops of that culture can promote to that level. I'll admit that im not sure if un-integrated, conquered citizens for example provide political power or not right now, but i assume they do not? But if the integration level is fremeen the freemen of that same culture do, while citizens don't? It seems weird and unintuitive to me, is political integration bottom-up?

But what I'm trying to argue is that a freeman is by definition a free man without political rights. If he was free and had political rights he would be a citizen.

If people who aren't citizens, and thus don't have any political rights, still should have political rights doesn't that make the labels used to distinguish the two worthless? I believe the game jumbles it as it seems as if conferring citizen rights to a culture makes that culture citizens. But it doesn't, it makes them elegible to promote to citizen, if they aren't already citizen pops or higher.

It is made worse by the game treating fremeen and citizens as economic classes, freemen being lower class and citizens a sort of middle class, but the labels dont mean or imply that and other systems treat them as purely political labels.

There were filthy rich freemen rome that still weren't allowed to vote. There were poor roman citizens who didn't own any land, yet still kept their right to vote. Citizens could and were required to serve in the army, freemen were not. I think the game should stay close to that reality rather than try wedge itself in-between the two and unnecessarily confusing everyone involved.
 
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master_kong

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Political Citizenship is determined by the Cultural Integration status, and this gates elligibility for the Levy. The Freeman class should absolutely be contributing to this if they have political rights.
That's only true for foreign cultures, cultural integration doesn't reflect political rights for the primary culture. So freemen shouldn't contribute to the Levy by default and only contribute after passing a law for that. What you are saying is true for foreign cultures though.

Laws for political rights of your people, cultural integration for political rights of foreign culture people. That's what my understanding of those mechanics.
 

IsaacCAT

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It also just means that pops of that culture can promote to that level. I'll admit that im not sure if un-integrated, conquered citizens for example provide political power or not right now, but i assume they do not? But if the integration level is fremeen the freemen of that same culture do, while citizens don't? It seems weird and unintuitive to me, is political integration bottom-up?

But what I'm trying to argue is that a freeman is by definition a free man without political rights. If he was free and had political rights he would be a citizen.

If people who aren't citizens, and thus don't have any political rights, still should have political rights doesn't that make the labels used to distinguish the two worthless? I believe the game jumbles it as it seems as if conferring citizen rights to a culture makes that culture citizens. But it doesn't, it makes them elegible to promote to citizen, if they aren't already citizen pops or higher.

It is made worse by the game treating fremeen and citizens as economic classes, freemen being lower class and citizens a sort of middle class, but the labels dont mean or imply that and other systems treat them as purely political labels.

There were filthy rich freemen rome that still weren't allowed to vote. There were poor roman citizens who didn't own any land, yet still kept their right to vote. Citizens could and were required to serve in the army, freemen were not. I think the game should stay close to that reality rather than try wedge itself in-between the two and unnecessarily confusing everyone involved.

The game uses political weight of POPs only to calculate unrest

Nobles: 300%
Citizens: 100%
Freemen: 150%
Tribesmen: 75%
Slaves: 35%

About the levies we should think outside Rome too. What about Tribes? Or other Republics, and Monarchies?

If only citizens and nobles are counted for levies, how tribes get levies? If we do not use political weight for levies and only use cultural integration, tribesmen are on the bottom of civic rights:

Noble -> Citizen -> Freemen -> Slave -> Tribesmen

And a culture is only integrated if they have citizen status civic right or more.

Then, the type of POP that is counted for levies can only be a function of government type:

Tribes: cultural integrated tribesmen for sure and citizens and nobles?
Republics: cultural integrated citizens and nobles before laws, freemen after laws? and tribesmen?
Monarchies: cultural integrated citizens and nobles before laws, freemen after laws? and tribesmen?
 

master_kong

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If only citizens and nobles are counted for levies, how tribes get levies?
Of course there should be laws related to the Levy contribution from pop types and freemen don't contribute to the Levy aka Rome situation shouldn't be the case for all countries. These can easily be customized through laws for different countries or governments.
 
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Valentinius

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The game uses political weight of POPs only to calculate unrest
Huh. Holy crap i completely misunderstood how political weight works. For some reason I thought it affected senate votings in republics. Oh well ignore that part of my argument, sorry to all involved.
About the levies we should think outside Rome too. What about Tribes? Or other Republics, and Monarchies?
I did say that should be a separate law in the previous message, which the likes of rome and sparta would not have at start. But overall I agree with you.
 
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IsaacCAT

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The whole political weight is bothering me, I have noticed that no matter what government type the political weight is the same. Nonsense. This requires a suggestion on the Senatus Populusque for changing! Too many already....

Also unrest shall be more important, now it is too easy to manage, at least IMHO.
 
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IsaacCAT

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Of course there should be laws related to the Levy contribution from pop types and freemen don't contribute to the Levy aka Rome situation shouldn't be the case for all countries. These can easily be customized through laws for different countries or governments.

At the start of the game, you should be able to rise levies from other cultures if they are integrated, right? If you have not passed the law to allow freemen to contribute to levies, you will not benefit from those cultures unique unit types. Only Citizen or Nobles if you have given them that right. Ok with that.

But what about cultures that are basically tribes? The horse archers levies should come from tribesmen not freemen! There must be a law to allow tribesmen to contribute to the levies but also the game shall allow for tribesmen to remain inside other types of governments if we want to levy this kind of special units. Do not tell me that freemen are good horse archers...

Maybe Indian freemen master the Elephants to war, but freemen/citizens/nobles horse archers?... no no
 
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master_kong

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At the start of the game, you should be able to rise levies from other cultures if they are integrated, right? If you have not passed the law to allow freemen to contribute to levies, you will not benefit from those cultures unique unit types. Only Citizen or Nobles if you have given them that right. Ok with that.

But what about cultures that are basically tribes? The horse archers levies should come from tribesmen not freemen! There must be a law to allow tribesmen to contribute to the levies but also the game shall allow for tribesmen to remain inside other types of governments if we want to levy this kind of special units. Do not tell me that freemen are good horse archers...

Maybe Indian freemen master the Elephants to war, but freemen/citizens/nobles horse archers?... no no
You have a point, but I don't know if it'd be possible regarding gameplay reasons. Maybe we should think of those freemen as tribesmen that just integrated into society. Also, I think the law for freemen contribution to the levy should just affect the primary culture. Other culture pops should be handled with culture integration mechanics.
 
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Bovrick

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It is made worse by the game treating fremeen and citizens as economic classes, freemen being lower class and citizens a sort of middle class, but the labels dont mean or imply that and other systems treat them as purely political labels.

There were filthy rich freemen rome that still weren't allowed to vote. There were poor roman citizens who didn't own any land, yet still kept their right to vote. Citizens could and were required to serve in the army, freemen were not. I think the game should stay close to that reality rather than try wedge itself in-between the two and unnecessarily confusing everyone involved.
This is my point - think of Pop types as (badly named) Classes, and Integration status as Citizenship. Then it makes sense. Sure you can argue there should be own-Culture non-Slave non-Citizens, but I'm not really sure we need that distinction for gameplay purposes.

Once a culture is Integrated it is your Culture.
 
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Bovrick

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The whole political weight is bothering me, I have noticed that no matter what government type the political weight is the same. Nonsense. This requires a suggestion on the Senatus Populusque for changing! Too many already....

Also unrest shall be more important, now it is too easy to manage, at least IMHO.
I'd call "Political Weight" another case of a fine factor to include for Pop types (if badly balanced, I agree unrest is too weak). It's just badly named (again) as it isn't really the Pop influence on Politics (as that's all Characters), it's just the social/economic capital the Pop has to rebel.
 
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Iosue Yu

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Sorry for necromancy. I've been redirected by Isaac when we were discussing mercenaries.

I think this thread holds an important discussion because sometimes we really need to understand what were what.

To me, I hold these questions.
  1. Perioikoi - the "surrounding-dwellers". Which of the Pop type they are represented?
  2. Misthophoroi - the mercenaries, who were generally poor and exiled from their home countries, travelling in the world, signing up as mercenaries with a desire for loot and adventure.
  3. Is there a difference between Freemen inside cities and those in other settlements? Then what are the differences between a regular Freeman and a Tribesman if outside city?
  4. Also, is there a difference between really "freed men" and a Freeman Pop?
  5. How long down the line does a Citizen Pop represent? What's the minimum wealth to be considered a Citizen? And does it mean Citizens would just be the ones who could afford Heavy Infantry equipment, to be enlisted as Hoplites and Principes? Hastati were lightly armoured infantries who were not wealthy. But they also served as Roman levies and legionarii. Are they represented as Freemen Pops or included in Citizens?
I will try to read through this thread when I am free. I will just leave these questions here just in case I get absent-minded.
 

Iosue Yu

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Ok, finished reading.

As a late comer, I'd like to start contributing to this discussion with something new. Since we will be having a levy system and therefore manpower would be treated differently, so I have the impression that Pop's output will be reviewed somehow.

Since we're talking about levies, let's begin by identifying the few different types of soldiers.
  1. Skirmishers
    1. Including
      1. Lithovoroi, who threw stones at enemies by hand
      2. Sfendonitai, Greek slingers
      3. Helotes - Spartan slaves who served as slingers
      4. Akontistai, Leves and Velites - Greek and Roman javelinmen
    2. Usually very unarmoured and untrained, these soldiers would be levied from the most poor citizens, still citizens nontheless.
      1. Except for Helotes, they would be made up of Spartan Helotes, who were the Spartan version of Slaves.
  2. Lightly armoured infantries
    1. Including
      1. Psiloi - Greek light infantries
      2. Toxotai - Greek archers, mostly from Crete
      3. Thyreophoroi - downgraded Hoplites, most Mercenaries belonged to this
      4. Hastati - Roman heavy infantries, not as heavy as their main very heavy infantries
    2. These would also be levied from citizens who could afford basic armour, or mercenaries
  3. Nicely equipped infantries
    1. Including
      1. Hoplites and Phalangites - mostly the same but Macedonian Phalangites wielded a Sarissa instead of a regular spear (Dory)
      2. Peltastes - nicely but lightly armoured Javelinmen in Greece
      3. Principes - Roman main line of very heavy infantries
      4. Epilektoi - Greek elite Hoplites
      5. Spartiatai and Homoioi - Spartan elite Hoplites
      6. Triarii - Roman returning veteran soldiers
      7. Legionarii - Roman professional soldier after Marian reform
      8. Evocati - Roman returning veteran legionarii
    2. They would be levied from citizens who were really wealthy to afford dressing up the whole body with equipment
  4. Cavalries
    1. Including
      1. Hippeis - Greek Cavalry
      2. Equites - Roman Cavalry
      3. Socii Extraordinarii - Roman Cavalry enlisted from the Socii (allies) who were not Roman citizens but rich, under their Auxilliary systems
    2. They would be levied from the richest of all citizens - the Nobles. You need to own a horse to be able to enlist
    3. They would also see little duty other than chasing off routed enemies and crushing poorly armoured skirmishers
After listing out all of these, I believe clarifying the distinction between Citizens, Freemen and Tribesmen would be important as they would also affect what kind of soldiers we are getting from the levies.

Perhaps
  1. Nobles -> Heavy Cavalries
  2. Citizens -> Heavy and Light Infantries
  3. Freemen -> Skirmishers and Light Infantries (for Sparta since Spartans citizens would always be Heavy)
  4. Tribesmen -> Light Cavalries, Light Infantries and Skirmishers
  5. Slaves -> Skirmishers (for Sparta only)
Under this system then, Citizen would represent both the Hastati and Pricipes ranks of citizens. The Freemen would always be outside, as Freemen as of now represent the highest social status someone not integrated can become.

Also, special care should be made to tribal Nobles. I also don't think the dividing line between Citizens and Freemen would be their wealth only, because it isn't compatible with how Cultures are handled. Does it mean conquered foreign Nobles would somehow just lose their wealth and become poor? You can either confiscate their properties or you can exile them. But the game right now doesn't handle it this way. Nobles and Citizens get demoted, meaning they would be relieved from their positions and roles instead of a change in wealth.

The other problem would be Freemen. Do they represent the Perioikoi, people who dwell in the surroundings?

And yes, their output types all need to be redesigned, since Nobles will give you Heavy Cavalries and they can't be replenished by chopping up a Freeman Pop into 500 and filling up the empty saddles.
 
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@Iosue Yu , the system draws from Hellenic and Roman traditions, but it has to be flexible enough to portrait all other cultures present at that time in the whole world.

Some compromises have to be made. Or we can think about different systems for different cultures that can talk to each other. I would be glad to hear your suggestions.
 
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Iosue Yu

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@Iosue Yu , the system draws from Hellenic and Roman traditions, but it has to be flexible enough to portrait all other cultures present at that time in the whole world.

Some compromises have to be made. Or we can think about different systems for different cultures that can talk to each other. I would be glad to hear your suggestions.
It's a difference between how we tackle problems. I would prefer we have something solid first — the biggest 2 Rome and Hellenistic countries. Then at least we can get something running first before we move on to perfect other cultures. That's where those compromises are for. Like it or not, this game is about Rome and the Greeks. Other countries are just supplementaries, even Carthage.

But fine, I should try to see writing about some generic tribal situations. Let's see what I can dig up in the internet.
 
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Gurkhal

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To me the concept of "tribesmen" is kind of messy but in regards to the Greco-Italic cultures I kind of envision them as being the people who do their own thing with little part in the greater society. So you've got some pastoral herdsmen, subsistance farmers and the like who are mostly self-sufficient, don't involve themselves in politics and have to interest in any deeper role in the economy. They just want to be left alone and leave the greater society alone. Hence why they contribute so little.

Although I realize that this view may not fly very well in regards to the, say, Celtic or Illyrian polities, and the tribal government as it is right now.
 
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Gurkhal

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As a late comer, I'd like to start contributing to this discussion with something new. Since we will be having a levy system and therefore manpower would be treated differently, so I have the impression that Pop's output will be reviewed somehow.

Since we're talking about levies, let's begin by identifying the few different types of soldiers.
  1. Skirmishers
    1. Including
      1. Lithovoroi, who threw stones at enemies by hand
      2. Sfendonitai, Greek slingers
      3. Helotes - Spartan slaves who served as slingers
      4. Akontistai, Leves and Velites - Greek and Roman javelinmen
    2. Usually very unarmoured and untrained, these soldiers would be levied from the most poor citizens, still citizens nontheless.
      1. Except for Helotes, they would be made up of Spartan Helotes, who were the Spartan version of Slaves.
  2. Lightly armoured infantries
    1. Including
      1. Psiloi - Greek light infantries
      2. Toxotai - Greek archers, mostly from Crete
      3. Thyreophoroi - downgraded Hoplites, most Mercenaries belonged to this
      4. Hastati - Roman heavy infantries, not as heavy as their main very heavy infantries
    2. These would also be levied from citizens who could afford basic armour, or mercenaries
  3. Nicely equipped infantries
    1. Including
      1. Hoplites and Phalangites - mostly the same but Macedonian Phalangites wielded a Sarissa instead of a regular spear (Dory)
      2. Peltastes - nicely but lightly armoured Javelinmen in Greece
      3. Principes - Roman main line of very heavy infantries
      4. Epilektoi - Greek elite Hoplites
      5. Spartiatai and Homoioi - Spartan elite Hoplites
      6. Triarii - Roman returning veteran soldiers
      7. Legionarii - Roman professional soldier after Marian reform
      8. Evocati - Roman returning veteran legionarii
    2. They would be levied from citizens who were really wealthy to afford dressing up the whole body with equipment
  4. Cavalries
    1. Including
      1. Hippeis - Greek Cavalry
      2. Equites - Roman Cavalry
      3. Socii Extraordinarii - Roman Cavalry enlisted from the Socii (allies) who were not Roman citizens but rich, under their Auxilliary systems
    2. They would be levied from the richest of all citizens - the Nobles. You need to own a horse to be able to enlist
    3. They would also see little duty other than chasing off routed enemies and crushing poorly armoured skirmishers
After listing out all of these, I believe clarifying the distinction between Citizens, Freemen and Tribesmen would be important as they would also affect what kind of soldiers we are getting from the levies.

Perhaps
  1. Nobles -> Heavy Cavalries
  2. Citizens -> Heavy and Light Infantries
  3. Freemen -> Skirmishers and Light Infantries (for Sparta since Spartans citizens would always be Heavy)
  4. Tribesmen -> Light Cavalries, Light Infantries and Skirmishers
  5. Slaves -> Skirmishers (for Sparta only)
Under this system then, Citizen would represent both the Hastati and Pricipes ranks of citizens. The Freemen would always be outside, as Freemen as of now represent the highest social status someone not integrated can become.

Also, special care should be made to tribal Nobles. I also don't think the dividing line between Citizens and Freemen would be their wealth only, because it isn't compatible with how Cultures are handled. Does it mean conquered foreign Nobles would somehow just lose their wealth and become poor? You can either confiscate their properties or you can exile them. But the game right now doesn't handle it this way. Nobles and Citizens get demoted, meaning they would be relieved from their positions and roles instead of a change in wealth.

The other problem would be Freemen. Do they represent the Perioikoi, people who dwell in the surroundings?

And yes, their output types all need to be redesigned, since Nobles will give you Heavy Cavalries and they can't be replenished by chopping up a Freeman Pop into 500 and filling up the empty saddles.

Excellent post, @Iosue Yu , and sorry for nitpicking but I'd like to start with that Helots were not slaves. They were serfs and they were the Spartan version of a concept existing also in Thessally, under another name, and on Crete. The Spartans, or more properly Lacedaimonians, certainly had slaves in the same manner as the rest of Greece as well, though, but to my limited knowledge more found among the perioikoi.
 
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Iosue Yu

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Excellent post, @Iosue Yu , and sorry for nitpicking but I'd like to start with that Helots were not slaves. They were serfs and they were the Spartan version of a concept existing also in Thessally, under another name, and on Crete. The Spartans, or more properly Lacedaimonians, certainly had slaves in the same manner as the rest of Greece as well, though, but to my limited knowledge more found among the perioikoi.
From what I have read previously on Wiki, the Spartans were just 3 kinds of people.
  1. Spartans, who had undergone the Agoge and only just train fighting without doing anything else.
  2. Perioikoi, the surrounding-dwellers, who would be buying and selling between settlements and contribute to their economy.
  3. Helotes, who had a different treatment to regular Slaves but occupied the same role as Slaves for Spartans. The Spartans also had an annual festival to simply kill and butcher Helotes performed by the Krypteia to keep the numbers of Helotes under control.
Note also Spartans didn't even have minted coins as currency and used a barter system.

I actually would argue the Spartans were more closely represented by being a Tribal government but just with 2 Kings. Or perhaps 1 King with another 1 King being a Clan Chief.

But sure I could be mistaken. Anyhow, the Helotes were allowed to be fodders and taken to the battlefields, despite being the bottom-most stratum of people. The Spartans would even want to trim down their numbers.

But under the current game's assumptions... I am lost for how these pieces of information can be used.
 

Marcus Pica

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Usually very unarmoured and untrained, these soldiers would be levied from the most poor citizens, still citizens nontheless.
  1. Except for Helotes, they would be made up of Spartan Helotes, who were the Spartan version of Slaves.
Again I believe the Roman skirmishers would be levied from Roman freemen pops, because I dont think the citizens represent all the spectre of population with Roman citizenship
To me the concept of "tribesmen" is kind of messy but in regards to the Greco-Italic cultures I kind of envision them as being the people who do their own thing with little part in the greater society. So you've got some pastoral herdsmen, subsistance farmers and the like who are mostly self-sufficient, don't involve themselves in politics and have to interest in any deeper role in the economy. They just want to be left alone and leave the greater society alone. Hence why they contribute so little.

Although I realize that this view may not fly very well in regards to the, say, Celtic or Illyrian polities, and the tribal government as it is right now.
I mostly agree with this. When e.g. Rome conquers tribesmen, they persist for a while until they are promoted one by one to freemen. Promotion in this case means a slow integration of tribals to the producing economy of Rome.
 

IsaacCAT

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I have submitted a suggestion on the SPQR this morning to change the political weight of POPs by the government type.

This will make the player to pay more attention to some POP classes than others depending on the government type.

For example, in a tribe, the player will be more concerned in keeping tribesmen more happy, because they will be more vocal in unrest. In Monarchies, nobles are the ones. In Republics depends on the type of Republic.

I like the idea of the player concentrated in satisfying its nobles in a Monarchy to avoid unrest but then, having unrest on the territories where nobles are not present because the other classes have been neglected.

Please, read the suggestion if you want, correct the weightings and/or share your thoughts about it.