What do people think about adding the ability to play as an unlanded character with a claim?

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Cathal341

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This is something i recently taught about because I discovered that one of my ancestors is in the game, Artrí mac Cathail(Wikipedia Link), but he is an unlanded courtier in the County of Cill Dara with a strong claim on Tuadhmhumhain so I couldn't directly play as him, not that big a deal since I just loaded up as the count of Cill Dara and pressed his claim then tagged switched to him. This of course disables Achievements even if I load it back up Ironman mode which is something that annoys me because I love to always have the possibility of snagging an achievement or two along the way and in general I dislike cheating.
I think the ability to play as an unlanded character once they have a claim would be very interesting since you would have to muster a host and preform a host invasion to take your claim which could lead to some interesting flavour events like owing a powerful lord a favor or even swearing loyalty to him if he funds your invasion and/or sends you troops to name just one. What are other peoples taughts on this?
 
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Moarice

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While I support the idea, I think this could be hard to implement. After all, how would you select them before starting the game? The best thing I can think of would be selecting from the list of vassals which evey character has, but this isn't an ideal choice.




On a side note, 9th Century royal bloodline? Wow, the oldest ancestor of mine I could find was a judge living at the end of 15th century.
Edit: Scratch that. He was the founder of my house, the oldest ancestor of mine I could find lived in 14th century who moved from southeastern Rus to Podlasie in 14th century.
 
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Cathal341

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I was thinking more along the lines of a column/menu on the start page with all unladed people with claims.

On a side note, 9th Century royal bloodline? Wow, the oldest ancestor of mine I could find was a judge living at the end of 15th century.
Yes I was surprised too when i first found out! My ancestors where actually Kings of Munster and High Kings of Ireland at that which is crazy, the character I mentioned's father, Cathal mac Finguine(Wikipedia Link), is actually a famous figure in Irish History. In fact the entire family, Eóganacht Glendamnach(Wikipedia Link), were very prominent figures from the 5th to the 10th Century and had lots of conflict with the Uí Néill's along with the other branchs of the Eóganacht.
 

Cathal341

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It's pretty much impossible to know you have an ancestor from the 9th century. Most likely the guy belonged to the same "tribe" or something.
Well thats were your wrong, since my family were quite prominant in Irish History its well documented and all i had to do was google my family name and it lead me straight there. I can inform you that the great grandson of the character im playing is in fact the founder of my actual dynasty the O'Keeffe or Ó Caoimh in Irish.

It's stated at the bottom of his Wikipedia Page Here
 

Silversweeeper

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A big problem with adding in playability for unlanded characters (and barons, for that matter) is that unlanded characters (and, to some extent, barons) aren't really AI-controlled. Anything going on with them is purely event-driven. If they were to be played, they would have to be able to receive events/take decisions in much the same way as a landed ruler, while at the same time not being able to take decisions/receive events that only should work for landed characters (which would not cause a slowdown in itself but might require some serious recoding of some events depending on the existing checks). If that was the case, the slowdown would be terrible, making the current endgame lag feel mild in comparison.

There's something like 1000 counties in the game, most with several baronies. While quite a few counties (and possibly baronies) are part of the same demesne, there are still thousands of rulers on the map at any given moment. Each ruler has their own court, which has a minimum number of adult courtiers (I think it is six, but I might be wrong) below which new courtiers are generated (and an additional restriction is that there should always be an unmarried woman below a certain age, so old women don't count). That gives you 5-10k courtiers alive at any point. Even getting rid of prisoners, children, incapables, imbeciles, and others that might not be expected to do much, you still have thousands of courtiers running around. To have something to do while sitting around as a courtier, you'd probably want there to be a few events per year per courtier rather than a random chance that some courtier in some court gets an event. With an average of two events per character per year and a lower estimate of 5k courtiers you arrive at roughly 27.4 additional events firing every game day; and that's only if these two events don't in turn give rise to new events and if we use a very small court size. Some of these events might be slightly expanded versions of events that already fire for courtiers, but to have the events be fun for a player you'd probably need to add more stuff.

Assuming courtiers were to actually be able to keep their dynasty going rather than dying out if their liege doesn't take pity on them, you'd need to have large courts, which would mean increasing the court size and the threshold at which courtiers start to have less children. This would also lead to more living characters, which would lead to more event spam, which would lead to more slowdown. Unless you also want the events to affect the liege (read: cause yet more event spam) these events would probably amount to little but slowing down the game (unless you want to make playing behind the scenes as a courtier extremely powerful, in which case CK2 would no longer be CK2 as courtiers in general don't impact things to a great extent), which isn't something that is wanted as people already notice performance issues to various extents.

Aside from event spam you'd run into the problem of having no power. Your biggest tool for going against your host would be to start a plot (with him being able to imprison you fairly easy). With this insignificant power, you can't really expect to be able to refuse your liege when he starts making decisions about your family, marrying your daughter off to your rival, sending your son to church, and randomly imprisoning your wife because the AI wondered what the magic button did. It might not be the literal end of the world, but you'd probably want to go off on an adventure as quickly as possible (and hopefully before your liege tells you to go to a holy order, gives you a barony, or otherwise ruins everything). At that point, you would either win the war (and thus end up landed, making further courtier play likely to be unnecessary in that campaign and thus wasting a lot of effort on gameplay that barely is used), die (and perhaps play as your heir, if you have one (who might not be married (and who would be unlikely to get married as lieges generally don't marry all of their courtiers to someone), might be married in the wrong fashion, or might otherwise be in a terrible position), or end up imprisoned (which could lead to all kinds of unpleasantries and possibly lead to spending a few decades staring at a wall unless prisoners also get more events, which leads to more event spam).

There is one possible way to get around a lot of the event spam, which would be to have the events only fire for a human player. Personally, I don't like it when the player gets special treatment (positive or negative) or the AI otherwise is unable to use a feature at least somewhat competently, but leaving aside that you immediately run into a big problem: The time/effort needed to make unlanded characters playable (and to make them fun) would be quite large for the amount of use that you get out of it (as you likely will end up landed at some point, willingly or otherwise), making it unlikely that the devs would be willing to spend time on it.


TL;DR: The slowdown would be terrible and the addition of being able to play a courtier wouldn't really add that much. Just use the console/mod the game to land your ancestor and play as him normally, or trigger the adventurer event for him with the console and take over if he wins.
 
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Cathal341

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While I get where your coming from Silversweeeper we're not talking about adding playable barons to the game, we're talking about adding the ability to play as an unlanded courtier with a claim (which there can't be too many of at any given start date) granted it would begin to build up as more and more unlanded courtiers appear for a variety of reasons but you could just limit the mechanics to the courtiers with claims that are present at game start. Not the most inventive solution but good for people who want to play as historical figures who start of unlanded(In my case an ancestor of mine).
 
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mrinku

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It's pretty much impossible to know you have an ancestor from the 9th century. Most likely the guy belonged to the same "tribe" or something.
Not if you're nobility. This is a Christian realm with monks writing stuff down and a serious obsession with lineage and land rights (litigation forms an invaluable historical resource). Same applies to the Muslims of the time, possibly more so. Not sure if the OP does have a true unbroken parent-child pedigree of 12 centuries, but it really doesn't matter if he wants to play his clan's founder.

The basic problem with being unlanded is that a LOT of events use "ruler" and "playable" to regulate them. It might well be possible to mod it for your starting character alone, which is all the OP is asking for, but it would likely be a fair bit of work.

OP, your best bet is to play a ruler of the same dynasty if there are any, and manipulate things so that your ancestor inherits. That would work in ironman, and you can always restart until you manage it. Tanistry succession may help, as that tends to pass to weaker, but popular dynasty members.
 

Cathal341

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Not if you're nobility. This is a Christian realm with monks writing stuff down and a serious obsession with lineage and land rights (litigation forms an invaluable historical resource). Same applies to the Muslims of the time, possibly more so. Not sure if the OP does have a true unbroken parent-child pedigree of 12 centuries, but it really doesn't matter if he wants to play his clan's founder.

The basic problem with being unlanded is that a LOT of events use "ruler" and "playable" to regulate them. It might well be possible to mod it for your starting character alone, which is all the OP is asking for, but it would likely be a fair bit of work.

OP, your best bet is to play a ruler of the same dynasty if there are any, and manipulate things so that your ancestor inherits. That would work in ironman, and you can always restart until you manage it. Tanistry succession may help, as that tends to pass to weaker, but popular dynasty members.
Sadly theres no other landed characters of the same dynasty, which is why I had to use the console. I really have been enjoying the game tho. Its really fun to try and outdo what my ancestor did in his life time. Just wishbi could do it in iron man and get achivements and stuff. Plus more ways to play are always fun.
 

Silversweeeper

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Given that unlanded characters (and adventurers, for that matter) currently are unplayable, the amount of work to open up even a few of them is probably not trivial. Even if you'd keep the event spam down if only these initial claimants at your chosen start date get events and even if you lowered the amount of work slightly by only having a few generic events for these claimants you'd end up spending a lot of time on something that players would only use once per game (at the most) and only would spend a few years on (due to death being game over as you'd most likely no longer be playing a claimant who was alive at the start).
 

Rags17

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FWIW I have a half completed mod to play as unlanded character that I was working on last year, it's now about 2-3 patches and DLCs out of date but the basics are still playable. The trick was to create five "unlanded titles" such as Shrewd Merchant, Errant Rogue and Charismatic Rebel that were basically unlanded Count level titles. The hard part was editing all the localisations and councilor actions and creating a function that allowed the player to "Set up Camp". Horse Lords came along and made our clunky workaround obsolete - I am sure that a bit of hard work would make it all playable again.

And by the way - ignore the haters, playing as a landless character is WAY cool ! If you don't believe me then try this simple trick. Simply fire up the game as any character of your choice, then console yourself in as a the leader of a Holy Order or mercenary band. Lots of weird mechanics such as the fact that you can't marry or designate your heir, but lots of cool workarounds such as taking concubines, the Seduction focus and making your chosen heir the most popular, well liked and respected man in the group.

best of all is the fact that since you have no ties you can click on just about any character of your religion and ask to join their wars. If nothing else you get prestige and glory, if you're lucky you can fabricate a claim at the same time on someone in the area and start your own demesne. Lose it and so what - wander the world again looking for fun.

One warning though - keep your army raised at all times, it costs you nothing to keep them on the map, localises your presence and stops you from being "raised" by another AI character.

Bottom line - playing as a landless character is a BLAST !
 
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Maybe the game could add an option: to begin the game with an adventurer. So you get a adventurer title at the very beginning of the game which gives you a half-working court, which makes the game more or less workable without giving too much runtime overhead.
 
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Dr Gonzo

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TL;DR: The slowdown would be terrible and the addition of being able to play a courtier wouldn't really add that much. Just use the console/mod the game to land your ancestor and play as him normally, or trigger the adventurer event for him with the console and take over if he wins.
Not sure if you're aware Silversweeper but unlanded characters already have quite a few events firing for them so I don't really see why this would cause massive slowdown. (e.g. duchy adventures, requests for titles, unauthorised marriages etc.). In general I agree that it's not worth it but I don't think that would specifically be a problem - especially as you could make any new events player only.
 
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Silversweeeper

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Not sure if you're aware Silversweeper but unlanded characters already have quite a few events firing for them so I don't really see why this would cause massive slowdown. (e.g. duchy adventures, requests for titles, unauthorised marriages etc.). In general I agree that it's not worth it but I don't think that would specifically be a problem - especially as you could make any new events player only.

They get events now, yes, but they would likely have to get more for a player to have an enjoyable experience in their position. Making lots of events player only (or making them much more frequent for players) is an option, but I personally dislike having the player play by different rules than the AI unless it is absolutely necessary (e.g. keeping the AI from creating kingdoms/duchies under gavelkind unless they need the title to form a higher title in order to keep the AI from shooting itself in the foot).

Besides, the events you mentioned are somewhat rare and would likely not be very enjoyable for a player the way they currently are scripted (random adventure targets/random claim adventures rather than getting to pick your target (making it possible that the game decides that you are suicidal and want to attack someone you could never defeat) and only firing relatively infrequently (the MTTH before modifiers is 50 years with a claim, 100 years without one, and there are additional conditions that need to be fulfilled for them to fire that are rather restrictive), title requests only firing for relatives (unless I misremember) of the host (and also randomly picking the title and being somewhat infrequent; though much more frequent than adventures), and marriages resulting from being lovers (which under the current setup would be due to random events leading to them falling in love, which also only would let you agree/disagree to become lovers with whomever the game decides) and also firing infrequently (the MTTH for that event is 10 years, with some additional restrictions possibly preventing it entirely)).
 
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