What defines the EU era?

[Pro]

One criticism that's often been made of the EU series is that it's mechanics are far era based than paradox's other series. That while industrialization and political parties, or vassals and dynasties, place the Victoria and Crusader Kings in specific eras a lot of the central mechanics of EU, like base tax, government types, or religion bonuses, could just as well fit in a game taking place on alpha centauri. While I think it's been getting a bit better I still think this criticism is largely correct. So, with that in mind, what are the defining characteristics of the EU era?

I'd say:
Exploration (The exploration and colonization of America, European discovery of the sea route to India and the European naval dominance (and towards the very end land dominance) in Asia.)
Ideas (The EU era saw a lot of changes in the ideas that defined how states were governed: it saw both the rise and the fall of absolutism, and between religious wars and early secularization and the scientific revolution)
The reformation

 

[OmegaInvictus]

defines.lua.

 

[Rubidium]

Off the top of my head:
-The Age of Discovery/colonization
-The Reformation
-The rise of absolute monarchies
-The enlightenment, with new philosophies and the massive advances in science
-Culminating in the America, French and Latin American Revolutions

And as a background, the rise of Europe from its relatively equal position in 1444 to its crushingly dominant position in 1821. In an ideal world, this would take place more slow and steady, at least in Asia (Europeans show up and seize a few trading posts starting c. 1500, these holdings slowly expand over the next couple of centuries, and then really take off in the 1700s).

None of which is to deny the various important things happening outside of Europe during this time period (e.g. the rise of the Gunpowder Empires, the rise of the Inca or the replacement of Ming with Qing).

 

[DukeWilleo1630]

I've been playing the eu series since the beginning when I was a kid. And I can think of 4 main things that popped out at me then which I remember, and are still around now.
1. Colonization
2. The Reformation
3. Siege system
4. Diplomacy and the peace settlement system!(An overlooked but core part of the series)

There is another thing that made EU1 and 2 awesome. The history. If you played a nation, you would get historic events that would teach you history as well as impact the game. But obviously this has been changed eu3 and eu4. Far less hardline historic and more generic now.

 

[klingonadmiral]

The rise of the modern definition of a "nation", at least in Europe.

 

[Jorlaan]

defines.lua.

I can't take anything else seriously after this

 

[Mikalos]

I've been playing the eu series since the beginning when I was a kid. And I can think of 4 main things that popped out at me then which I remember, and are still around now.
1. Colonization
2. The Reformation
3. Siege system
4. Diplomacy and the peace settlement system!(An overlooked but core part of the series)

There is another thing that made EU1 and 2 awesome. The history. If you played a nation, you would get historic events that would teach you history as well as impact the game. But obviously this has been changed eu3 and eu4. Far less hardline historic and more generic now.

just about everybody is in agreement that less railraoding is always better

 

[Rey]

-Renaissance, Humanism, and Scientific Revolution;
-Exploration, Trade, and Colonial Expansion;
-Consolidation of central authority, Absolutism, and Nation.

 

[DukeWilleo1630]

just about everybody is in agreement that less railraoding is always better

I'm not saying the generic events are bad. They continue to improve them and make them more dynamic and flavorful. The historic events is just something that made eu2 special. And there was an amazing mod that greatly increased the historical realism. Can't remember the mod name though. Play eu2 before you knock what you call 'railroading'.

 

[Gnomi]

The slow rise of modernity.
The slow rise of nation-states.
The rise of European nations as the global powers.

That being said, the world changed quite a bit in EU's timeframe -- much more so than CK's or Vicky's. It is expected that it is very difficult to have the game mechanics that capture the essence of its time period.

A simplified version of Vicky's pop system would be nice for EU5, though.

 

[LiberiusX]

TBH, the EU franchise needs to be split into 2 different games.

The first game would focus on the transition from feudalism to centralization and the concept of the nation-state. It would also focus on the Reformation and the Wars of Religion. The game would culminate in the inevitable Thirty Years War(or something like it) and end in 1650.

The second game would focus on empire building in the new world and in Asia. It would culminate in the Age of Revolution. It could probably incorporate some generalized POPs and proto-industrial activity.

The problem is that Paradox has really put themselves between a rock and hard place. These 2 separate games are not feasible. Paradox has made a game that is so broad and so ambitious, that it can't help but feel bland and shallow. They will never be able to give Europe the proper attention to detail without feeling the need to service the ROTW in a balanced manner. I've finished 3/5 Vicky 2 campaigns played. I've finished 0/5 EUIV campaigns played. It's just dull.

 

[Mikalos]

I'm not saying the generic events are bad. They continue to improve them and make them more dynamic and flavorful. The historic events is just something that made eu2 special. And there was an amazing mod that greatly increased the historical realism. Can't remember the mod name though. Play eu2 before you knock what you call 'railroading'.

have

If historical events happen regardless or have an entirely to high chance of happening, then there is a problem, this is victoria 2's greatest flaw: things happoen like history because the game simply cannot abide them not, america expands to the pacific and eats half of mexico, a bunch of historical events with no relation to anything ingame happen because of whatever, and then america falls into a civil war where the border states never form the CSA but every possible territory i could is a slave state that broke from the USA because of fears of abolitionism (Which is even more amusing when it's a southern democrat party in power)

 

[Mikalos]

The slow rise of modernity.
The slow rise of nation-states.
The rise of European nations as the global powers.

That being said, the world changed quite a bit in EU's timeframe -- much more so than CK's or Vicky's. It is expected that it is very difficult to have the game mechanics that capture the essence of its time period.

A simplified version of Vicky's pop system would be nice for EU5, though.

i would disagree that the world changes more in eu than the vicky time period

also, no. no pops. they only make any kind of sense once liberalism shows up, and for something thats only going to be there for a few nations and the revolution, we dont need it over the existing system

 

[Olligarchy]

The Rise and Fall of Sweden of course.

Or in this games case the Rise and Rise and Rise and Rise etc of Sweden.

 

[Gnomi]

i would disagree that the world changes more in eu than the vicky time period

also, no. no pops. they only make any kind of sense once liberalism shows up, and for something thats only going to be there for a few nations and the revolution, we dont need it over the existing system

In some ways, yes -- but I do think it is much more feasible for the single game mechanic to cover the Vicky time period than it does for the EU time period. That being said, it helps that Vicky does a better job of capturing the societal change than EU does.

About your second point, I was thinking something like a province-level faction system that can cover class/ethnic/racial heterogeneity in each province, instead of the full-fledged Vicky pop system with its own consciousness, economic needs, political motivation, and capital accumulation. Such system can at least partially account for the societal change that took place during the time period (and the differences between, say, Eastern and Western Germany). It also will free us from the absurdity of the province-wide religious/culture conversion.

 

[Aethelred]

1. The rise of the state (not neccessarily nation-state) - a process which, however, was not finished by 1800 in all/most european countries. Until then we have an (extremely conflictual) transition from feudal relationships to states. Some aspects (most of which were not finished in EUs timeframe): abolishion of serfdom/estates-based society i.e. creation of a homogenous state-citizenship, abolishion of lordship i.e. centralization/monopolisation of juridicial power and princes acquiring direct access to subjects/reducing the autonomy of landlords, creation of standing armies after 1650, stabilization of taxes/taming of the parliaments/nobility, territorial princes increasing their influence over the church/loosening their ties to Rome, creation of a bureaucratic state-apparatus, the development of diplomacy (huge piece congresses, the imperial diets in the 16th cent.), etc. etc.
2. (very strongly linked to 1.) Courts and perhaps also favoritism. Courts as historical-plitical phenomenons reached their climax around 1700. A game set in this age that doesn't represent courts in some way is a failure I'm afraid. Both mechanics- and immersion-wise.
3. Dynasties. The era was still largely characterized by dynastical politics. Also: The breakdown of the medieval-christian world-order (Pope, Emperor, Rest). Instead, with the new international law, Europe was idealiter a group of equal souvereign powers.
4. The confessional divide.
5. Colonialization was important to some countries. Though GB and France didn't really care that much about North America (the land where there was nothing but some beavers...).

 

[Elfryc]

I won't be original, but for me the key-word is discovery:

1) Discovery of new areas (and so, civilizations) in the world. That's an important stage for globalization, even if some others happened before and after EU4 era. But this time period saw the interconnection of people all around the world, and the affirmation that the world was still to explore, but had defined boundaries.
When confirmed, this changed the act of discovery, in the sense that instead of going from and coming back to the same known place by describing a loop, now an exploration travel was a journey from one known point to another known point, roughly in straight line (see Africa maps at the end of the period).

2) Discovery of new ideas and technologies: philosophy, sciences, relations to God/gods; the apparition of such sciences as economy, social sciences, etc.
That's the first step for industrialization, which will thereafter replace progressively craftworks.

3) Discovery of new sentiments: humanism, human rights, nationalism/nation states (when compared to patriotism and loyalty that existed before), revolutions.
And this concerns not only the social/political/cultural/religious elites, but also the whole people: as an example, peasants and traders were pilars for the French Revolution, which changed the face of the world, even if this was based on the Enlightenment movement which originated in the elite classes.

The links these three types of discoveries are multiple and very complex.
Just as an example: the idea that God created the world in seven days, some 4 or 5 millenias before (as stated by the Bible), was heavily challenged by the discovery of China and Chinese annals: they kept memory of such ancient periods that the world had to be created much earlier than the date given by calculation from Biblical texts.
This opened the possibility to look at the Bible with another point of view, and see this book as a half-historical and half-mythicalbook inspired by religious sentiments, so opening the way to the contestation of the pope's authority, the actual society and its justifications, and so on.

 

[Denkt]

Globalisation

 

[hitchens]

Religious wars.

 

[Haccoude]

The evolution from feudal to nation states. With the later only truly supplanting the earlier after the Peace of Westphalia.

The colonization of the Americas, but mostly only the construction of trade forts and posts outside of it.

European domination not through superior land military, technlogy or the machine gun, but superior power projection and navy enabling them to have access to the entire globe to "butt into" local politics and take advantage of internal struggles. Europeans aren't able to take on a stable India, Japan or China, but unlike them the Europeans can travel and project power to whichever of them aren't stable.

Internal politics decided not by a nobility deriving power from land, but by courtiers deriving power from offices and positions as favorites. Nobles struggling not to acquire land, but trying to undermine the monarchs' current favorites and become one themselves.

An evershifting face of Warfare. From smaller armies with a focus on quality and dominated by heavily armoured men-at-arms living off the land, to huge armies primarily of pike infantry supported by a smaller cadre of elite heavily-armoured men-at-arms rampaging countrysides, to the "Cabinet Wars" of primarily professional infantry and noble officers leaving the civilian population largely untouched (at least by earlier standards) through extensive logistics networks, to the Levée en Masse of the Napoleonic wars reintroducing the huge rampaging armies, this time in the name of Ideology instead of Religion.

The changing nature of the struggles in addition to the armies fighting them, from the dynastic politics and wars of the 15th and early 16th centuries, to the Religious wars of the 16th and up-to mid 17th centuries, to wars as an "argument between Kings" of the later 17th and the 18th centuries, to wars as a method of deciding the face and fate of Europe in the late 18th and early 19th centuries.

The sowing of the seeds of the complete European domination of the Globe in most aspects. Seeds which only grew and bloomed during the 19th century after the end of EU4.