What CK2 needs: Geographic Constrictions

[Zoston]

Okay, I know paradox is never going to do this, but the more I thought about this idea the more I felt it would really improve the CK2 experience (for me at least), so I had to post it somewhere.

The gist of my idea is this: has anyone else gotten annoyed at seeing the Holy Roman Emperor have half the holy land as his personal demesne? Or felt that it was just kinda weird that any duke from Iceland can find and marry an Ethiopian courtier? To me the more I play the more these things start taking me out of the game's immersion. The medieval age was a time where travelling great distances was hard. The crusades are the great spectacular event of the era, but there's a reason so few took place. It took a lot of organisation and planning to get an army all the way across Europe.

Now I understand that CK2 isn't going to have a HoI type supply system to mimic the logistics of the age. But the way the game currently works it feels like there's some kind of international postal service providing instant messaging across the continent.

My suggestions is very simple: split the world up into several regions, and restrict how much control and influence a player has in regions not adjacent to their own. In my mind the regions would look something like this:



The restrictions would be the following:

• You can only hold demesne titles in the region and regions adjacent to the one your capital is in. (If you conquer land in distant regions, you must give said land to vassals in that region)
• You can only marry counts or courtiers living in your own or adjacent regions. (You can still marry dukes/princes/kings from anywhere, representing that such higher nobles have more extensive diplomatic connections)

It's really very little, but it would do so much when it comes to weakening the HRE or Fatamid's ability to run rampant across the map. And it just helps the immersion a lot by making controlling or negotiating with distant regions more challenging than your own backyard.

Anyways if anyone agrees with me or has a better idea, post below and maybe paradox will listen.

 

[victimizer]

Absolutely.

 

[kevindrosario]

But I like marrying the genius grey eminence lowborn courtier from halfway across the world with 30 diplomacy :sad:

 

[Math2]

Great idea....Would totally add realism

 

[ByzCrusader]

This could go well with something that creates actual crusader states in the result of successful crusades!

 

[cybrxkhan]

An interesting idea.

Currently it might be possible to do something similar for some of the game's mechanics using distance. So, for instance, it's possible to mod in that holy wars cannot be declared beyond a certain distance (and then you can mod, maybe, at certain distances there are more requirements, what not), or that claims cannot be fabricated beyond a certain distance, and so on. Maybe even this can be used somehow. In my VIET mod, for instance, I've limited holy wars beyond a certain distance (unless a hefty amount of prestige or something is paid), and it does help tone down holy wars - I'm pretty sure vanilla CKII could benefit from something similar not just for holy wars but for other parts of the game.

 

[riknap]

An interesting idea.

Currently it might be possible to do something similar for some of the game's mechanics using distance. So, for instance, it's possible to mod in that holy wars cannot be declared beyond a certain distance (and then you can mod, maybe, at certain distances there are more requirements, what not), or that claims cannot be fabricated beyond a certain distance, and so on. Maybe even this can be used somehow. In my VIET mod, for instance, I've limited holy wars beyond a certain distance (unless a hefty amount of prestige or something is paid), and it does help tone down holy wars - I'm pretty sure vanilla CKII could benefit from something similar not just for holy wars but for other parts of the game.

CB modding aside, it would be nice if we could mod the maximum distance of demesne lands a ruler can hold, to avoid having holdings in Iceland, Persia, and Siberia while your capital is in Mali as a hyperbolic example
it might be possible with events, but I haven't yet had time to experiment with such though...

though regarding the OP's proposal, limiting interactions to regions is a bad idea. What if I were a count in Byzantium and wanted to get laid with the princess in the next door county in Central europe? That's basically as retarded as having a date where one is seated at half table of a cafe in Belgium and the other in the table-half in Netherlands, and the girl saying there are "borders" we cannot cross (ie. a 10 cm border).

 

[cybrxkhan]

CB modding aside, it would be nice if we could mod the maximum distance of demesne lands a ruler can hold, to avoid having holdings in Iceland, Persia, and Siberia while your capital is in Mali as a hyperbolic example
it might be possible with events, but I haven't yet had time to experiment with such though...

Yeah, stuff like that. Things like modding the distance for accepting marriages (if not of the same culture or something), or modding the distance where claims can be fabricated.

Reminds me, currently it's possible to mod the cost of trade posts as distance increases. Stuff like that.

 

[Wilkey]

I'd love to see this, it probably won't be put in the main game but paradox could add it as an mode you could select in the options menu or maybe as some kind of hard core DLC.

 

[Elfryc]

Not this easy at all... I also think this aspect has to be improved, but I never managed to guess how this could be done. [This was written before I began to write down all of this...]

For the 'international postal service', it was sometime the case. Just look at this: http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philippe_le_bel#Post.C3.A9rit.C3.A9 (CTRL-F + type this: "Ascendance de Philippe IV de France" then click on "afficher", in blue on the right).
You may see that the king Philip counted ancestors from Hungary, Spain, Hungary, Byzantium and so on.
For trade, there's only to look at the extent of Italian mechants' offices: all over Western Europe and Orient. Italian merchants wandered from Alexandria to Bruges, passing by the Champaign fairs. The bishops of the whole Christianity sent money and letters to the Pope, in Rome...
For the extension of conquests: there's just to look a map of the Carolingian Empire, of the Umayyad califate or of Byzantium to see their huge extent.
About mercenaries, the Catalan company served Andronic II of Byzantium in Anatolia.

So, not an easy matter at all. However, maybe it would be a good idea to restrict possibility of marriage of counts to their kingdom; maybe to the kingdom and their neighbours for dukes; why not the whole CK2 world for kings.
And yet, there's to look at the French dynasty de Lusignan: Hugh VIII was the count of la Marche, his 4th son Amalric II was king of Cyprus and Jerusalem after his brother Guy; Amalric's daughter Sybilla married the king of Armenia; eventualy some members of the dynasty became kings of Armenia.

I currently think the best thing would be to mix a penalty for distance (linked to the rank: higher for counts, lower for kings) AND for foreign culture.
So, as an Irish count, you could easily choose an Irish wife for your son, and quite easily a Scottish or Breton wife. It would be a little more difficult to pick an English wife or an Irish wife living in Jerusalem, and nearly impossible to choose an Armenian or Greek one, save maybe if she lives in Dublin. However, as an Irish king, you could very easily pick a queen in the French or Greek nobility, the nearer being the easier.
If this exists yet, then that should be raised dramatically.

As for territorial extension, I believe there is currently a penalty for the relations with your vassals when far away, and there is a sure one when they're foreigners. Maybe this should be raised dramatically, but wouldn't prevent the extension of Italian culture all over Africa (as it did in Spain for France and German in Africa), so there is to find something else.

When looking in the files landed_titles.txt you find this for quite a lot of duchy and kingdoms:

c_byzantion = {
[...]
orthodox = 500 # Crusade target weight
catholic = 250 # Crusade target weight
muslim = 250 # Crusade target weight

This apply to Crusades and Jihads, but maybe this idea of a different weight could be applied to culture instead of religion?

Because, another set of maths is found within landed_titles.txt: 'dignity'

d_trebizond = {
[...]
dignity = 7

This 'dignity' is explained so in the file, depending from places (and DLC/patches):

dignity = 10 # Counted as having 10 more counties than it does

dignity = 200 # Never want the Republic of Venice to change primary title

I think it would be worthwile to have a few more math for something we may call 'attraction' or 'interest', in this way maybe:

c_byzantion = {
[...]
attraction_irish = 0
attraction_italian = 100
attraction_bulgarian = 1000
attraction_swedish = 0
attraction_german = 0
attraction_republic = 200

Thus, the A.I. would choose much more realistic targets for expansion:
- Irish A.I. would consider as a 0-weight the choice for expansion towards Constantinopolis (vs something like 2000 for Ireland and 500 for Wales or Scotland);
- Italian lords A.I. as a 100-weight;
- Italian republics as a 300-weight (100+200) the same choice (vs something like 1000 for Northern Italy and 400 for Sicily);
- Gotland or Hansa as a 200-weight (0+200) (vs something like 500 for Novgorod, with 250 for the baltic landsand 250 for pagan lands);
- but Bulgarian nobility would weight it as a 2000-choice.

So, maybe Italian republic would prefer to expand in Italy, the HRE in Europe, England in Scotland, Normandy and Flanders, etc.

May be a load of crap.

Yay? Nay?

 

[rowdyyobbo]

Yay, being able to tune attraction would be good. It might be cleaner to implement and program as a hash (attraction('irish')=0, etc.) to allow for modding cultures. Of course, it would be easy to chew up all the memory that way.

 

[unmerged(26764)]

The problem here is your premise is not accurate.

European nobility DID marry princesses from halfway across the continent. The nobility was a pretty small world. Their peers were not the common people of the nations they ruled, but the noble houses of other parts of europe. Go to wikipedia and start reading about who the wives were of all your dukes and kings. Or for that matter, how the royal houses and countless countries were foreigners who didn't even speak the language of their kingdom because of those marriages.

Pretty much, if it was part of the old Roman Empire or Germanic Europe it was fair game. Eventually that came to include Russia too.

Maybe not Iceland to Ethiopia, but anywhere else.

The game is actually pretty accurate. Marriages did happen about nobility from across the map all the time. Houses did hold land and titles in multiple kingdoms. Nor was travel that big of a problem before they had cars -- it was all part of the former Roman Empire for the most part and horses and boat were plenty fast enough -- and remained fast enough into the 1800s.

Part of your problem is also the difference between the de jure and de facto map. The map in your head is the de jure map. But land that was part of one kingdom legally were sometimes held by a title holder based in another kingdom. In the game, that would belong to the other kingdom in the de facto map. But de jure, it still looks like it's part of the first kingdom even though in reality a foreign lord controlled it in a phoney "vassalage" and not the legal king.

It's not the game that's wrong. It's your perception of history. It wasn't as "backwards" in those ways as you assume.

 

[Kaiser Ludwig]

Text

True;but that refers to Duke or above titles or power. Barons and Counts however, it seems somewhat realistic. The distance "penalty" would more accurately represent an actual "desires better alliance" because part of the reason why some count in Anatolia wouldn't marry an Icelandic counts' daughter is that in fact said alliance is pretty much useless to him, specially when considering everything closer to home.

Also, Iberia and Italia need to be considered adjacent.

 

[Chamoisking]

Must sacrifice realistic aspect for gameplay. Inbreeding will occur if barons and counts can only marry each other in adjacent provinces. The player should be able to hold multiple provinces from multiple distance locations or the game would become boring.

 

[Beric Dondarion]

But...but..Ireland has no women at the game start! What is that lowly vile earl of Ormond going to do now!(seriously if you think this is a good idea, go play a count where there are literally no women in the adjacent counties.)

 

[Wallain]

Yay? Nay?

Well. Those "attraction" ratings should be able to be put on kingdoms and empires and affect everything below them or it would be a big hassle to mod in. Else it seems like a good suggestion.

 

[Spartanlemur]

I'd probably add two extra links for historical accuracy: Britannia-Central Europe (Matilda married German) and ByzantineE-Eastern Europe (Orthodox-Orthodox connection).
This would be a brilliant idea though and would certainly make the game more enjoyable for those of us who currently consider it too easy. Perhaps these restrictions could be added in a "hardcore" mode or something?

 

[Math2]

Maybe just give them a penalty for being overextended...IE reduced tax, increased corruption and thus risk etc

 

[smeggy]

I suggest something completely different: time delays and information gathering costs. CK2 needs delays in which information can travel, and rulers should spend resources on gathering information: the futher away, the more expensive and the longer it takes to gather. Would make a nice interesting new dimension as well to the game. A dynamic fog of war so to say, on people, wars, rules, etc.

 

[monsterfurby]

A "only nearby provinces" filter for a whole lot of menus (character search, marriage, etc.) would be a good first step.