What Are Your Thoughts on Napoleon Bonaparte?

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bz249

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Do you guys seriously think that France would have ended up winning the Revolutionary wars and keeping their colonies, Savoy and Belgium, if Napoleon had not taken power?

The intent by the monarchs of Europe to crush the Revolution and restore the Bourbons was clear. They were always going to grab any lands and wealth that seized their fancy while pursuing that goal.

By making their ultimate victory much more expensive than it would have been without him, Napoleon may infact have left France in a better position. By the time of the Congress of Vienna everyone was too exhausted and eager to find a stable peace to rob France of everything they could get away with. France even ended up keeping conquered territory after all.

By 1800 the monarchs of Europe were about to accept the reality that France is a hard nut to crack, but the revolution is contained and did not spread out of France. At the Congress of Vienna they were seriously though about totally dismembering France, but skillful diplomacy from Talleyrand (and to no small part the conflicts of interest between the great powers) saved the situation.

So yes France could have consolidated the position after the treaty of Amiens by not being dick. Playing the German states against each other and Russia against the Britons was well within the realms of possibility.
 

Geriander

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By 1800 the monarchs of Europe were about to accept the reality that France is a hard nut to crack, but the revolution is contained and did not spread out of France. At the Congress of Vienna they were seriously though about totally dismembering France, but skillful diplomacy from Talleyrand (and to no small part the conflicts of interest between the great powers) saved the situation.

So yes France could have consolidated the position after the treaty of Amiens by not being dick. Playing the German states against each other and Russia against the Britons was well within the realms of possibility.

The treaty of Amiens was a direct result of Napoleons victories and France would have been a much easier "nut to crack" without him. As for the peace sticking if Napoleon was less of a dick, I doubt it. The British were the first to violate the terms and probably always intended for the truce to only buy time while they formed a new coalition.
 

bz249

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The treaty of Amiens was a direct result of Napoleons victories and France would have been a much easier "nut to crack" without him. As for the peace sticking if Napoleon was less of a dick, I doubt it. The British were the first to violate the terms and probably always intended for the truce to only buy time while they formed a new coalition.

That is where the art of diplomacy starts... to paint the other guy as the dick. This is where Napoleon failed, because honestly the guy who sends and army plundering and raping through Europe automatically takes the role of the dick.
The job is: France achieved its natural defensible borders. The fevre of revolution is gone, we are a civilized player now, the anchor of the European system. A nation which respects treaties... unlike those pesky others at the Atoll.
 

Old_Guard

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Bonaparte's promulgated the Civil Code because he happened to be Prime Consul when the Civil Code was achieved, but his influence on it was somewhat minor (albeit real: few conservative considerations here and here). The Civil Code redaction was, mainly, Cambacérès direction's work. Cambacérès worked on it since the 25th of June 1793, in the early days of the French Republic, under the National Convention. When Bonaparte made his coup to become Consul, then Prime Consul, the French Code Civil was quasi achieved.

The personal link between Bonaparte and the French Civil Code was mostly propaganda, albeit it can't be denied that the authoritarian regime he established contributed to make its adoption easier: it was done, without much opposition, thanks to the constitutional "bug" used by Bonaparte to fire tribunes of the republican and liberal opposition from the Parliament.

You're downplaying the role Napoleon had in getting the code implemented.

It's true that the National Assembly unanimously recognized the need for new a new code of laws in 1791 and the National Convention organized a commission in 1793 to draft said code under the leadership of Cambacérès, before Napoleon's accession. However, the first draft was rejected on the grounds of it not being accessible to the public. So Cambacérès prepared a second draft and it was introduced in 1794. But once again, it as rejected. So Cambacérès once again drafted a new code. But even after three series of revisions, the code still failed in 1796. And when a fourth code was introduced by a reorganized commission in 1799, it was once again rejected. Despite four separate attempts at passing the code, the ruling body couldn't agree do it. This shows how fractured and ineffective the ruling body of France as in a span of eight years, they had accomplished nothing of note in this regard.

This is why Napoleon was vital. Upon his Consulship in 1799, he established a new commission of jurists to write the codes in 1800, with Cambacérès included. Given that most of the work was completed at that point, the code was completed in 1801, and by 1804, the code was passed with Napoleon actively supporting it.

This shows that without Napoleon's involvement, the code would have taken much longer to pass (if not at all), and might not have passed in full. While it's true that Napoleon's conservativism had an influence on the final draft, the code being implemented alone made progress by cementing ideals of the revolution into common law. Its also still important to note that because of France's expansion under Napoleon it was spread beyond France and into Europe.

These are the series of events as I understand them. I'm fairly certain that I did the right research into this response, but if in wrong in some aspect, let me know.
 
Last edited:

Captain Frakas

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It doesn't chock me that something as fundamental as codifying and unifying civil laws in a territory that, few years ago, had distinct civil laws and legal traditions, take time to be put in place. The importance of having an unified civil law was agreed by the National representation. What, in some cases, lead to disagreements was: how to reconcile those traditions? which custom or written law is to be favoured in a specific case? which custom or law shouldn't be kept? which to adapt? is the selected custom or written law conform to the general interest?

The idea that the answers given to those questions have to reach the agreement of a majority of Nation's representatives doesn't strike me as something bad: many articles of the codification were adopted by the way. Long debated laws tend to produce better laws than laws adopted without much debate. The distinct juridical regimes in France were not a sudden thing that stroke France and needed a fast answer. It was the case since Middle Ages! I don't think it would be wrong to have this codification took longer to pass and that very contested parts of the project have to be changed or abandoned... It wasn't an urgent thing to do.

The solution found by Bonaparte, was to put an end to citizen's vote by suffrage and to fire the republican and liberal opposition from the Tribunate. Yes, when you eliminate discordant political voices, it make it easier to pass laws... My humble opinion is that it was conjectural reasons rather than structural reasons who made that the Civil Code wasn't promulgated before the rise of Bonaparte as a Consul, that the promulgation of the Civil Code would had happened anyway within years, and that the benefit of having, the fastest possible, an unified and codified set of civil laws didn't overweighted the harm of establishing an authoritarian regime.
 
Last edited:

Eusebio

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Napoleon emancipated the Jews and upheld religious tolerance generally. Not a small thing.
 

Captain Frakas

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Nope, the French National Constituent Assembly emancipated Jews by adopting a decree the 27th of September 1791, on the demand of Jacobin Nation's representatives. What Bonaparte did was to force French Jews to organise their religious practice inside a kind of "church" for administrative and political purposes: the Israelite Central Consistory of France. That was a good idea but that's certainly not comparable to emancipating them.
 

Abdul Goatherd

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The solution found by Bonaparte, was to put an end to citizen's vote by suffrage and to fire the republican and liberal opposition from the Tribunate. Yes, when you eliminate discordant political voices, it make it easier to pass laws... My humble opinion is that it was conjectural reasons rather than structural reasons who made that the Civil Code wasn't promulgated before the rise of Bonaparte as a Consul, that the promulgation of the Civil Code would had happened anyway within years, and that the benefit of having, the fastest possible, an unified and codified set of civil laws didn't overweighted the harm of establishing an authoritarian regime.

Promulgating a new code isn't too much of a challenge. Dozens of barbarian chieftains did that. If that is his principal "achievement", then I guess that puts him on the level of such household names as Euric the Visigoth, Gundobad the Burgundian, Rothari the Lombard, Ina the West Saxon, etc.
 

Avernite

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Promulgating a new code isn't too much of a challenge. Dozens of barbarian chieftains did that. If that is his principal "achievement", then I guess that puts him on the level of such household names as Euric the Visigoth, Gundobad the Burgundian, Rothari the Lombard, Ina the West Saxon, etc.
Promulgating a new code and making it stick tends to be harder, reminded of the XKCD comic about standards...

https://xkcd.com/927/
 

yerm

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Napoleon gets a bad rap only because he repeatedly lost.

Taking the fight out of your borders and living (raping and pillaging) off the land was normal. Doing this as France, famed for offensive warfare doctrine, against a nation who violates agreements to attack you? Very far from the evil some of you are screaming.

As far as betraying the revolution and republic, I see him more like a Caesar, in that he DID try to push for helping the underclass and topple degenerative entrenched nobility, but via authoritarianism rather than democracy.

Certianly he was a flawed man but hardly the bloodthirsty warmonger or tyrant that the winners painted him as.
 

Drakken

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Its not as if the British or the other reactionary forces of Europe gave Napoleon a chance to rule in peace. He wasn't the one to break the peace of Amiens. Placing the whole guilt for the suffering during the Napoleonic wars on his shoulders is hardly fair.

If Napoleon did not break the peace of Amiens, he sure did his damnedest to make sure the British would break it.
 

Geriander

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If Napoleon did not break the peace of Amiens, he sure did his damnedest to make sure the British would break it.

The British never even complied with it as they continued to occupy Malta and Egypt, both violations of the peace.
 

Old_Guard

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Promulgating a new code isn't too much of a challenge. Dozens of barbarian chieftains did that. If that is his principal "achievement", then I guess that puts him on the level of such household names as Euric the Visigoth, Gundobad the Burgundian, Rothari the Lombard, Ina the West Saxon, etc.

I highly doubt promulgating a new code in context of revolutionary France is the same in terms of difficulty as Early Middle Ages Europe.
 

Herbert West

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I highly doubt promulgating a new code in context of revolutionary France is the same in terms of difficulty as Early Middle Ages Europe.

That's just Abdul being Abdul.
 

bz249

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The British never even complied with it as they continued to occupy Malta and Egypt, both violations of the peace.

There is one huge difference between the French and British situation. Britain had interests in fighting a war, while the interest of France was to maintain the peace... just look at how the relative strength of France and Britain developed as a result of the war.
 

Geriander

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There is one huge difference between the French and British situation. Britain had interests in fighting a war, while the interest of France was to maintain the peace... just look at how the relative strength of France and Britain developed as a result of the war.

Yes and that is part of the reason Britain was never going to stick to the peace of Amiens. The other part was that the dominant position of France on the continent was simply not acceptable for Britain and had to be broken somehow. Napoleons choices in the long run were to either defeat Britain or to give up enough of his conquests for there to be an even balace of power in Europe. Giving up conquests won with french blood would have been political suicide for any goverment so war with Britain was inevitable.
 

bz249

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Yes and that is part of the reason Britain was never going to stick to the peace of Amiens. The other part was that the dominant position of France on the continent was simply not acceptable for Britain and had to be broken somehow. Napoleons choices in the long run were to either defeat Britain or to give up enough of his conquests for there to be an even balace of power in Europe. Giving up conquests won with french blood would have been political suicide for any goverment so war with Britain was inevitable.

Or via the combination of soft and hard power build up a coalition against the British. Because the war with Britain was inevitable... the war with Austria, Russia, and Prussia was not.

As of 1801 France had a hidden ace:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_mediatization
 

Geriander

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Or via the combination of soft and hard power build up a coalition against the British. Because the war with Britain was inevitable... the war with Austria, Russia, and Prussia was not.

As of 1801 France had a hidden ace:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_mediatization

Austria, Russia and Prussia weren't ever going to be happy about the dominance of France either. There was also no territory for any of them to gain from a war with Britain (except for Hannover but that only buys the Prussians). Finally there was the perceived threat of liberal ideas spreading from France.

The soft power available to Napoleon would have to overcome all of the obstacles above as well as the massive amounts of money Britain was willing to pay anyone willing to fight France. Instead of trying this Napoleon tried to use hard power to force everyone into his coalition against the British.
 

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Austria, Russia and Prussia weren't ever going to be happy about the dominance of France either. There was also no territory for any of them to gain from a war with Britain (except for Hannover but that only buys the Prussians). Finally there was the perceived threat of liberal ideas spreading from France.

Napoleon had Spain and Holland as more or less allies. Lock Prussia (for Hannover and the dominance over North Germany) and that's it mission accomplished. You have half the world against the other half of the world as previously.

The soft power available to Napoleon would have to overcome all of the obstacles above as well as the massive amounts of money Britain was willing to pay anyone willing to fight France. Instead of trying this Napoleon tried to use hard power to force everyone into his coalition against the British.

Which in reality meant that everyone teamed up against France. Internal conflicts between the other majors gave France the luck to fight and defeat them separately, but after their vulnerability become obvious they were toast.
 

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Napoleon had Spain and Holland as more or less allies. Lock Prussia (for Hannover and the dominance over North Germany) and that's it mission accomplished. You have half the world against the other half of the world as previously.



Which in reality meant that everyone teamed up against France. Internal conflicts between the other majors gave France the luck to fight and defeat them separately, but after their vulnerability become obvious they were toast.

The French, Dutch and Spanish navies combined proved incapable of defeating the British and the latter could therefore pick off colonies at will. Prussia had no significant navy to add to this equation. Without naval superiority Napoleons only hope of defeating the British was the Continental System and he had no soft power methods available to get half of Europe to play along.