What are your thoughts on Lem?

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Note: I think my favourite thing about the patch is the beef up for various civics that until recently were rather weak; there's now a real choice selection.

Huh, come to think of it, master craftsman and technocracy could make for a rather epic synergy.
I love the ones they beefed up. But I also feel sad for those that are left untouched.

With the changes to how housing and planet building slots work now, Agrarian Idyll has needed work. I've just started a game with Idyll and Catalytic Processing and it can really pump out food and alloys. However you are really lacking building slots because with this civic you don't want to build housing districts...

... Please give Agrarian Idyll a building slot for every 2 or 3 districts that are unlocked.
 
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Anyone run across major bugs? I want to jump in but I'm always hesitant to start a committed playthrough the day a big patch drops, in case I run into major bugs.

Yes. The "Invunerable Fleet" bug is still happening.

The fleet of the enemy become invunerable (where everyone ignore them attacking and don't fight back) and I lost a lot of ships and had to run with my fleet to not lose the War.

This is like the worst possible bug.
 
Have to disagree even on GA the AI is still terrible and falls behind far to quickly.If it is better than the improvement is so small that I can barely notice it ,maybe it went from 1 out of 10 to a 1.1.Compared to Starnet it feels like the AI doesn't play the game at all.

And if you play suboptimally you are not testing it seriously and the comparision is worthless.

I’m not really testing it at all. I’m playing it, having fun, and relaying that in an open manner.

YMMV. For me not getting onto the council and being the immediate most powerful empire is unusual, as even playing sub optimally I would achieve this by accident.
 
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In case of gospel, it's better compared to the former building without crime. But syndicates still have the huge issue with removed branch offices at zero crime. It's nearly impossible to build the subversive shrine first because it only generates 25 crime. Precinct houses are still too strong here and my subversive cult stagnated.
Not only does the Subversive Shrine not produce enough crime to hold its own, it also only produces half of the spiritualist attraction as its legal counterpart. On top of that, the spiritualist attraction it does provide generally isn't as effective because the syndicate using it generally won't have any diplomatic pacts with the target, which would provide a nice base attraction to be modified by the building, but doesn't in this case. On top of all this, criminal branches don't typically stick around long enough to make this ethics attraction do anything. On top of that even is the fact that even if half the target planet were converted to spiritualism, the amount of trade value produced would still be generally so low as to make it not worthwhile, because Gospel of the Masses itself is weak. .33 trade value per Spiritualist pop was already very weak before Lem, but it's now completely irrelevant relative to the amount of trade value one can get from other sources via Mercantile. Free Traders will always be the superior civic under the current system, and any other branch office building will always outcompete even the Temple of Prosperity, let alone the Subversive Shrine.

It's just kind of weak, which is disappointing.
 
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Necroid Hive needs buffs desperately. :confused:
Please take a look at these pictures:

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The weird thing is, the Necrophytes are still set to Livestock status and also have 0% Happyness. But why? They are a specialist job and do not work in the livestock job anymore yet they still destroy your Stability. And other players have reported that you cannot nerve-staple the livestock slaves because then they can no longer use the Necrophyte job...

Also as you can see on the "Assembling" picture, Necrophages are being assembled at an Abysmal 0.50 rate. Meanwhile non-Gestalt Necrophages can just build Robots at 2.0 assembly speed and ignore the growth and assembly Malus. Something needs to be done for Hives.

Of course thats not where the problems end. You have your -10% Worker/ Menial Drone output which doesn't matter much for non-Gestalts because you just have your non-Necrophage do worker jobs. But as Hives, Necrophages have to work all jobs. So you are getting 5% bonus Complex Drone output but -10% Menial Drone output. Thats just bad. And you have a 5% Ruler output which does nothing because Gestalts don't have rulers.
 
I was doing some testing for my mod...

With : Eternal Vigilance + Unyielding + Strategic Coordination Center + Defense-Grid Supercomputer + All basic techs with no repeatable the soft cap of Defense platforms is at... Hum... 100 :oops:

So it is possible to have even more for sure.

pic2.png
pic1.png


My mod doesn't touch the number of platforms... Even without my mod, it is going to be interesting to see if new defensive meta will come.
 
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My final verdict on Lem will hinge on how the Custodians address the few issues with some of the changes, namely the problems facing Necrophage hive minds and the no food Catalytic Processing exploit.

So far, Lem is very nice, which is exactly what was advertised. It's not a worldshattering update with systems that will take a year or more to straighten out. The changes to traditions are very welcome even if Domination was rendered utterly useless. Plantoids and Humanoids getting actual content is amazing and everyone appears to be having a blast with the new Clone Army origin. The buffs to the more boring civics were most welcome. One of my other favorite changes is finally getting rid of the asinine two-trait system for Void Dwellers. That is a godsend.

Overall, Lem seems like a solid technical and polish update for Stellaris, which is what the Custodian Initiative was made to do. If they also respond quickly to player feedback about some unintended consequences of these changes, then I'll be very optimistic about the future.

Oh, but I hate the changes to the Shattered Ring start. At least get rid of the stupid habitability trait or make the other two sections habitable but also shattered...
 
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...The changes to traditions are very welcome even if Domination was rendered utterly useless...
Whoa there buddy, it's not useless but awesome... With the new system though, you can opt to not pick it instead :D
 
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On top of all this, criminal branches don't typically stick around long enough to make this ethics attraction do anything.
My understanding was that an update or two ago criminal branch offices could only be closed at a rate of one a decade. Definitely an influence sink vis-a-vis other corporations, but easily overcomable.


Not contesting with your broader point, though I think you miss a strategic dynamic- the role of Subversive Shrine isn't something to do to an empire in the early game before you dominate them, but rather something to do after you've enforced your will and made a subsidiary of them.

Like a Barbaric Despoiler setting up a Hegemony Federation, Criminal Syndicates only need one good diplomatic relationship to start a trade federation with, which is the goal of all true mega-corps. At which point making other empires into subsidiaries can drag them in, even as you rig the Federation rules to keep other mega-corps out (by, say, banning foreign commercial pacts.)

At this point, a Trade Federation Subsiary relationship is one of the strongest ethics attraction pulls in game, as being in a Federation with a Spiritualist Empire, being the Subject of a Spiritualist Empire, and having migratory access with a spiritualist (which is enforceable via Trade Federation rules) combined to x6 weighting on your subsidiaries. At which point- if you yourself are Spiritualist- Subversive Shrines are just a way to further facilitate and profit from an ethics shift that should already be happening, that you want to happen to make your Federation more united, and adding more trade value to be multiplied by your trade federation bonuses

Subversion Shrines isn't a game-start civic you take to make money, but a Trade Federation management civic for the mid-game (and later) game, when your targets should already be subject to crime spirals on built-up worlds and you can have the later-game Influence tools (like Custodian) to replace the branch offices.
 
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Necroid Hive needs buffs desperately. :confused:
Please take a look at these pictures:




The weird thing is, the Necrophytes are still set to Livestock status and also have 0% Happyness. But why? They are a specialist job and do not work in the livestock job anymore yet they still destroy your Stability. And other players have reported that you cannot nerve-staple the livestock slaves because then they can no longer use the Necrophyte job...

Nerve-stapling not supporting Necrophyte has been around since Necrophage was introduced. And managing non-hive mind unhappiness (and amenities in general) has been central to the Hivemind gameplay design.

Also as you can see on the "Assembling" picture, Necrophages are being assembled at an Abysmal 0.50 rate. Meanwhile non-Gestalt Necrophages can just build Robots at 2.0 assembly speed and ignore the growth and assembly Malus. Something needs to be done for Hives.

You're comparing apples to oranges here. Aside from that Necropahges can't start any pop assembly until they draw and build the robots, which could be decades into the game depending on RNG and economy, the proper basis of comparison is Necro-hives to other hive minds.

To which the balance is clearly non-symmetric by design: necro-hives get a slower pop assembly of a superior pop, but in turn also get livestock that grow, a unique job that gives more amenities and unity that Hives are often short in, and the totally-unique necro-purge, which is the only hive-mind option to directly convert non-hive pops to the superior necro-hive pops.

Which, when combined with the Catalytic Converter civic, is extremely high-potential, as instead of minerals-to-alloys you can directly convert your livestock-to-alloys to then conquer more livestock for more alloys. Or- if you have too much livestock- necro-purge for more super-specialists.

Necro-hives have the highest snowball potential of any hive mind, as once they make their first conquest they can turn captives into far more productive assets far sooner than other hive-midns can.

Of course thats not where the problems end. You have your -10% Worker/ Menial Drone output which doesn't matter much for non-Gestalts because you just have your non-Necrophage do worker jobs. But as Hives, Necrophages have to work all jobs. So you are getting 5% bonus Complex Drone output but -10% Menial Drone output. Thats just bad. And you have a 5% Ruler output which does nothing because Gestalts don't have rulers.
If you're necrophages are working as energy workers or farmers, you're playing it wrong. Build your starbases and invest in solar panels and nebula refineries and the space economy.

An entire pillar of the gestalt economy game is that starbases- freed from trade- are far more integral to the early-game economy, while the worker economy is more limited by the amenities shortage. Solar Panels beat trade collectors for the first decades easily, hydroponics bays can cover entire early-game empires, and if you RNG a nebula you'll get loads of rare gases for boosting science output. Combine that with the Unyielding tree (+4 starbases, -50% starbase upgrade cost), and for the normal cost of four starbases you can get ~80 food/96 eneergy a month from 8 starbases alone. This is equivalent to nearly 20 pops of output at a time your empire is barely 40. Take the grasp the void perk in conjunction, and you can get another 50 food/62 energy in your first decades. This is more than enough to put all your starting -10% energy/farmer drones out of the energy/farmer jobs.

Where necrophages do have a weakness is their mineral economy, which is a balance to their unique trait of 5% not just to ruler-jobs, but specialist (ie, complex drones). But- if you're doing your starbase economy and letting starbases/livestock handle the food- you can compensate not only by having more pops available to be miners, but more pops available to be scientists, or live-stock fueled catalytic converters. And if it is that big an issue for you, you can always spec your race build to have the miner trait to bring them to 'normal' until you reach the Bio-Ascension mid-game and can replace it freely.

The necro-hive early game economic potential is huge, and- assuming you take catalytic converters like any live-stock user should- has major snowball potential to simply out-muscle any non-rush empire economically with an early game economy/science build. Yes, it has an unusual build order- Unyielding trumping Expansion, Synchronicity is not a late-pick, Grasp the Void actually providing significant early-game advantage to support a science rush- but it's definitely doable.
 
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slower pop assembly of a superior pop

This is already wrong. +5% Complex Drone output and -10% Menial Drone output is crippling. But not only that. You get huge Stability penalties which outright cancel your 5% additional Complex Drone output and add even more malus to Menial Drone output. Overall you end up with less growth and not more output.
 
The devs stated that the necrophage hivemind was never meant to be a stable and balanced empire. It was rather implemented for roleplay purposes and should be seen as special challenge like doomsday.
 
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5/5 update. Finally. Not a magic bullet that fix everything, but it's the right direction and some fresh, cool stuff added too, so I say good job Custodian Matrix. Hope you don't go berserk.
 
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So far everything seems fine. I only had a chance to play for a few hours, though.

I got the usual Stellaris wackiness in my game - Sol spawned very close by and it turned out that there are tool-using upliftable otters living next to modern-day Humans (are they hiding from us?). Also the game considered the FE I met my first contact with intelligent species I met even though it was after I uplifted the Humans into a protectorate.

So an interesting take on the state of humanity :p.

No major problems, though.
 
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This is already wrong. +5% Complex Drone output and -10% Menial Drone output is crippling. But not only that. You get huge Stability penalties which outright cancel your 5% additional Complex Drone output and add even more malus to Menial Drone output. Overall you end up with less growth and not more output.
You're playing a necro-hive like a worker-economy empire when it's not.

The goal of a necrophage has always been to take the pressure off the worker economy (through stations, or diplomatic trade deals, or tributary relationships) to be able to put and keep more of your pops into the specialist strata. For necro-hives, you are totally free of 1 of the 3 menial jobs, and can completely negate the need for a second through the use of starbases. This means signficantly more pops free to be put into mines early, and more available to be specialists.

Further, all gestalts have major amenity issues to work around. It is part of the play style, and necrophage is leaning into this. It doesn't mean you don't have tools.

If you're having a major stability issue, you're not culling, converting, or concentrating your livestock, as well as probably neclecting the usual gestalt amenity restrictions.
-When early-game amenities become tight, Necropurge one of your starting sub-species and re-allocate your pops to lighten the planetary loads. By this point your starbase economy should be up to cover the energy and food production issues.
-Keep only as many livestock as needed to keep your ascension chambers filled, where the necrophytes produce amenities to cover their cost, but move excess livestock who start tanking stability through amenities to your dedicated farm worlds.
-Concentrate your livestock of what in other empires would be farm worlds. Stack Amenitity or stability-boosting necrophage jobs here to counter stability craters. Memorialist is useful as the stability buff is building-specific, and doesn't need actual workers.
-Get the Syncrhonicity tree early- as a second if not first pick- to get the Amenities-per-synapse drone. This can combine your admin worlds (which do not get affected by stability) and your farm worlds as the synapse drone amenities negate the livestock issues.
-Get an early-game tributary as soon as you dare. Their energy/mineral tribute will further take the need off your own.
 
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You're playing a necro-hive like a worker-economy empire when it's not.

The goal of a necrophage has always been to take the pressure off the worker economy (through stations, or diplomatic trade deals, or tributary relationships) to be able to put and keep more of your pops into the specialist strata. For necro-hives, you are totally free of 1 of the 3 menial jobs, and can completely negate the need for a second through the use of starbases. This means signficantly more pops free to be put into mines early, and more available to be specialists.

Further, all gestalts have major amenity issues to work around. It is part of the play style, and necrophage is leaning into this. It doesn't mean you don't have tools.

If you're having a major stability issue, you're not culling, converting, or concentrating your livestock, as well as probably neclecting the usual gestalt amenity restrictions.
-When early-game amenities become tight, Necropurge one of your starting sub-species and re-allocate your pops to lighten the planetary loads. By this point your starbase economy should be up to cover the energy and food production issues.
-Keep only as many livestock as needed to keep your ascension chambers filled, where the necrophytes produce amenities to cover their cost, but move excess livestock who start tanking stability through amenities to your dedicated farm worlds.
-Concentrate your livestock of what in other empires would be farm worlds. Stack Amenitity or stability-boosting necrophage jobs here to counter stability craters. Memorialist is useful as the stability buff is building-specific, and doesn't need actual workers.
-Get the Syncrhonicity tree early- as a second if not first pick- to get the Amenities-per-synapse drone. This can combine your admin worlds (which do not get affected by stability) and your farm worlds as the synapse drone amenities negate the livestock issues.
-Get an early-game tributary as soon as you dare. Their energy/mineral tribute will further take the need off your own.

You are writing a bunch of stuff to make it seem like you can magicall fix Necroid Hivemind with resettlement shenanigans. But you cannot. And you would be wasting a bunch of Energy while doing it.

Also Memorialist was fixed, please refer to the patchnotes.

You can read a detailed analysis on many Hivemind Necrophage problems in this thread:

I will provide a small summary about whats so bad about Necrophage:

  1. 5% Ruler output is useless and does nothing for Hivemind
  2. -10% Menial Drone ouput is a terrible malus and +5% Complex Drone output does not make up for it
  3. The Livestock job is bad and hurts your economy
It is important to understand that the Necrophage trait itself hurts Hiveminds. You might think the 0,5 food upkeep is a bonus. But then you realize that Livestock don't produce 6 food like a normal Food worker. Nope, they only produce 4 food. And they do not get increased food output from Edicts or the big 20% research.

At the start of the game, 1 Livestock pop can sustain 8 Necrophage pops. For non-Necrophages, 1 Worker can sustain 6 pops. But as soon as you start stacking ressource bonuses, for example the 50% bonus Food output edict, a non-Necrophage empire can sustain 9 pops from 1 Food worker. And the 50% bonus Edict doesn't affect livestock pops at all.

You see, the 0,5 Food upkeep doesn't help at all because the Livestock job is so bad. But I haven't even talked about the stability malus. See ingame screenshots in the link above. If you create a new colony you will have your livestock grow. Obviously the Livestock pops make up a significant amount of your pops. With their 0% Happyness, they destroy your stability. I had new planets with -16 stability. All of my non-Necrophage pops were making amenities to provide stability and removing stability again. Its really sad to see. I have a detailed image in the link, you can see for yourself.

And then you are left with -10% Menial Drone output ontop of it. That might not matter as much for non-Gestalts because your non-Necrophages work worker jobs. But it does matter for Hiveminds because your Livestocks do not work any other jobs.

Tl;Dr: Please read the analysis and join the discussion and help us salvage Hivemind Necrophages.
 
You are writing a bunch of stuff to make it seem like you can magicall fix Necroid Hivemind with resettlement shenanigans. But you cannot. And you would be wasting a bunch of Energy while doing it.

Also Memorialist was fixed, please refer to the patchnotes.

You can read a detailed analysis on many Hivemind Necrophage problems in this thread:

I will provide a small summary about whats so bad about Necrophage:

  1. 5% Ruler output is useless and does nothing for Hivemind
  2. -10% Menial Drone ouput is a terrible malus and +5% Complex Drone output does not make up for it
  3. The Livestock job is bad and hurts your economy
It is important to understand that the Necrophage trait itself hurts Hiveminds. You might think the 0,5 food upkeep is a bonus. But then you realize that Livestock don't produce 6 food like a normal Food worker. Nope, they only produce 4 food. And they do not get increased food output from Edicts or the big 20% research.

At the start of the game, 1 Livestock pop can sustain 8 Necrophage pops. For non-Necrophages, 1 Worker can sustain 6 pops. But as soon as you start stacking ressource bonuses, for example the 50% bonus Food output edict, a non-Necrophage empire can sustain 9 pops from 1 Food worker. And the 50% bonus Edict doesn't affect livestock pops at all.

You see, the 0,5 Food upkeep doesn't help at all because the Livestock job is so bad. But I haven't even talked about the stability malus. See ingame screenshots in the link above. If you create a new colony you will have your livestock grow. Obviously the Livestock pops make up a significant amount of your pops. With their 0% Happyness, they destroy your stability. I had new planets with -16 stability. All of my non-Necrophage pops were making amenities to provide stability and removing stability again. Its really sad to see. I have a detailed image in the link, you can see for yourself.

And then you are left with -10% Menial Drone output ontop of it. That might not matter as much for non-Gestalts because your non-Necrophages work worker jobs. But it does matter for Hiveminds because your Livestocks do not work any other jobs.

Tl;Dr: Please read the analysis and join the discussion and help us salvage Hivemind Necrophages.
The analysis was poor and was written by someone who clearly didn't understand how to manage the early-game hivemind economy or the tools they had to work with it. The way to salvage that is to actually identify what is broken, mechanically, vis-a-vis what's poor gameplay by the player.

1. Losing out on a 5% output bonus is not a malus- it's being the same. (It's not even a great bonus anyway, because the only thing it actually improved was unity and occasionally science. Trade, Amenities and Stability ruler-pop bonuses weren't boosted.)

2. A -10% menial drone job is a perfectly valid trade for a 5% complex drone output when the empire has -66% need for menial jobs by those drones. Early-game energy is covered by starbases; food is covered by starbases and livestock. You can easily afford to allocate more menial drones to both mineral and complex drone jobs if you build up your space economy, and the update that brought you necro-hives also halved the alloy cost of doing so.

3. You can manage the livestock job in a way to not hurt your economy. Yes, it is more amenities-heavy than other empires. Gestalts are always amenity-heavy. This is part of the hivemind pop economy when dealing with non-hive pops. You were signing up for this issue when you took the origin that thrusts more aliens into your early empire.

The analysis of the livestock issue is epitome of the weaknesses of the proferred issue, because it's a half-baked analysis that doesn't analyze other factors of balance. A non-livestock empire produces more food per unit, but also requires more upkeep per farmer, which is a significant balance consideration. A non-livestock farmer requires more food themselves. They require more amenities and consumer goods (unless slaves, which is a gamplay cost-benefit). The factor into your faction influence-and-happiness economy. If you aren't raising these and are just raising raw-output, any developer looking at you is going to see a flashing red light of 'doesn't know what they're talking about' and discount you accordingly.

There is a case- and possible developer oversight- to be made about how necrophytes fit into the stability picture. That would be a relevant thing to focus on. But 'my livestock are unhappy!' is a very weak case for an empire build that is inherently live-stock heavy. This is what Gestalt play entails when you have non-gestalt pops. It is, by design, not supposed to have the merits of free-willed organics in your no-free-will society.
 
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Does it bug anyone else that the color scheme for the new icon(s) doesn't quite match the older ones?
View attachment 756643
markedly and frequently. I presume the standards just got changed at some point. a lot of the various icons are like this; it becomes obvious when scrolling quickly on the wiki. I am hoping that the custodian team can convince the graphics guys to do a quick once-over for *everything* to make sure it all matches the same standards.

for said team, some of the logos that could use slight recolouring include but are not limited to: feudal civic, and corporate death; as well IMO, the government 'circles'. Individuals and Machines are fine, but the Corporate colour is, imo, too close to Oligarchy and should be pulled further from it, while hive mind is too close in some ways as well. Having a purple would be nice, as that colour is un-used. Other things, such as this https://stellaris.paradoxwikis.com/Population#/media/File:UI_demographics.png show very well, imo, why using "too close" colours can make things look "messy" and "lazy". It looks more like the colours are supposed to all be the same and have been slightly mis-coloured, vs, this actually showing 3 different colours (frozen, a trait, and a 'super'trait). for example, the exotic climate colour is quite close to the dry climate colour.

Just little things that can be easily done by just adjusting the hue to match whatever new standard that's decided on, but that will take time because the images likely have to be done individually.
 
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