What are your early game god-mode mod/unit combinations?

[coodav]

Pretty sure the gold standard for early and cheap but effective is troopers with rail accelerators + nanites/flechettes. Also, trenchers + 2 or 3 random mods you pulled out of a hat

Sounds like you're playing for more what I would consider the "mid game" though, in which case try checking out dvar/amazon echo walkers. I think technically the most optimal units for what you're trying to accomplish here is engulfers + a bunch of defense mods but engulfers is cheating

Yeah, I kind-of cheated with the purifiers, but that was what I just played so it poured out anyway. Prowlers like the OP were really what I meant. I will say, those void walkers are just crazy. You have to kill two unique units to get them. So if you run with the clone, you survive a-ok. That is insane. I had the computer completely suicide once, trying to kill my void walkers, and they couldn't quite kill both. I wiped their entire army out and they didn't lay a scratch on anything else. Just fantastic.

I'll have to look into the engulfers, as they were nerfed pretty hard. What is your thought with them, as it isn't all that hard to get them with the swarm?

 

[NINJEW]

Engulfers are a flying unit with built in armor strip and easy access to really high defense. There's honestly not a whole lot else to say about them, it's really easy to get them into a position where they're effectively unassailable and they have the tools necessary to grind you down from that position. The nerfs made them more difficult to use in competitive 1v1 but for your purposes they're perfect.

The trick with dvar/amazon echo walkers is you walk up like you're going to melee someone but instead of doing that, you put a clone behind them. Your single strike just became a double strike and now your opponent is presented with the choice of "kill 1 unit for the price of 2" or "ignore the ridiculously high damage unit in melee range of my army for 2 turns" and neither option ends well. In pvp it's more complicated (you might have to clone early to cover the approach, giving you less value) but again, for ai stomping they're kinda just unfair

 

[coodav]

Yeah, the engulfers were abused hugely once. I have wondered about them some lately, because of how bad they nerfed the shields, but if you think they are still capable, I believe it. I will say that i was a bit underwhelmed with the Kir-ko after the Sharkarn came out. It seems that they do everything the kir'ko did, but better, and it doesn't require units being in immediate proximity either. Just felt like they needed some love.

 

[NINJEW]

I've always thought of amazons as the most comparable to shakarn rather than kirko

Imo the longer a game goes the more strongly kirko become the best race you could be playing as

 

[coodav]

Well, think about the hero mods. All kir'ko can have frenzied and shields. But they have to be by an opponent. The Sharkarn give concussion, which is like 10X better. Further, their hunters concuss and shoot, both at range, which is huge. And the kir'ko melee tank has swallow on T1 or T2 units while the Sharkarn has concuss at high rates. I just don't think it compares.

It feels like both are shoved hard toward melee, but the Sharkarn is just better. And for late game, no way. The Sharkarn Sarnokarn is the best unit in the game hands-down. A few of those guys with heros or healers using sono-fins are bonkers. No possible way I can go with that. I have seen a pair of those things eliminate whole armies at once.

 

[NINJEW]

Ehhhhhhh the thing is kirko have access to mass psi buffs which is better than all of the stuff you're talking about

The lategame value of brood cluster is pretty huge too

 

[coodav]

Ehhhhhhh the thing is kirko have access to mass psi buffs which is better than all of the stuff you're talking about

The lategame value of brood cluster is pretty huge too

Against a sharnokarn with a built-in 6 damage reduction against psi on top of everything?

Look, I get it. If you go min/max on these guys like you say, you can build some amazing forces. I am just saying that if you did the same thing with Sharkarn, you would be a bit further ahead. Have you played both with vigor? I feel that you should normally agree with me.

 

[coodav]

I mean look at this:

10 armor 5 shields with zero defensive mods, guaranteed hit, annihilating, impairing - just... what?

Oh, and I forgot to mention the 3x5 ultra-long range aoe attack.

And it was sonokarn, not sharnokarn. My bad.

 

[NINJEW]

Against a sharnokarn with a built-in 6 damage reduction against psi on top of everything?

Look, I get it. If you go min/max on these guys like you say, you can build some amazing forces. I am just saying that if you did the same thing with Sharkarn, you would be a bit further ahead. Have you played both with vigor? I feel that you should normally agree with me.

I mean mantra of life on a kirko t4 is +2 shields battlefield wide and focus flames is +4 thermal resist vs their omni weapons and laser inflicts, plus the +evasion from mantra of clarity. not to mention the +range bonus. Multiplied across 18+ units the value of that can't really be understated. Kirko mods are very powerful too.

Shakarn are certainly a pretty powerful race but I think the comparisons you're making are really ignoring some major points of how absolutely ridiculous lategame kirko is.

 

[coodav]

Yeah... I have to think about that. Those flying brains are really tough. Ugh, it's impossible. At that point, it comes down to individual strategy and timing. Totally game dependent.

Here is kind-of the thing. The two units I have in mind are either stupid-good or stupid bad against those units. These sonokarn are psi-killers, and it doesn't much matter what your evasion is, they will hit you. That said, the carbon-sword heroes are susceptible like crazy. If the fight went wrong, it would be all-the-way wrong one way or the other. But we should play sometime. I would love to see how that ends.

 

[NINJEW]

I think the games I typically play are a bit fast for what it looks like your preferred settings are (game ends turn 25ish, done in a single sitting) but maybe next time Avoxel runs a game with the devs we can both get in

 

[coodav]

I think the games I typically play are a bit fast for what it looks like your preferred settings are (game ends turn 25ish, done in a single sitting) but maybe next time Avoxel runs a game with the devs we can both get in

However you like. But at turn 25, how on earth do you get those units? Some sort of fast settings?

 

[Sinsling]

However you like. But at turn 25, how on earth do you get those units? Some sort of fast settings?

normal speed. most accepted metas can be online and ready by turn 16-17.

 

[coodav]

normal speed. most accepted metas can be online and ready by turn 16-17.

Normal blitz, one army? That is aggressive. What other combos do you favor?

 

[orangelex44]

I'd say a proper rush in 1v1 (small map) is to have 15-18 units attacking your opponent before turn 20. Pretty much anything halfway competitive needs to be able to compete with that standard, meaning you need to be able to survive that sort of thing by that point. Rushers might not ever get past T1 units, but most builds will lean heavy into T2s and a few of the more exotic approaches can be starting to roll out T3s by turn 25.

Ninjew exaggerates a bit when he says every game is done by turn 25; I'd say turn 30 is closer to the average, and it's usually by concession and not conquest.

 

[coodav]

I'd say a proper rush in 1v1 (small map) is to have 15-18 units attacking your opponent before turn 20. Pretty much anything halfway competitive needs to be able to compete with that standard, meaning you need to be able to survive that sort of thing by that point. Rushers might not ever get past T1 units, but most builds will lean heavy into T2s and a few of the more exotic approaches can be starting to roll out T3s by turn 25.

Ninjew exaggerates a bit when he says every game is done by turn 25; I'd say turn 30 is closer to the average, and it's usually by concession and not conquest.

I have got to get into that. I am going to hop on the discord and get my conquest on. I do like a bit longer games, but I bet things get unbalanced too fast. Is early game basically the only game most times?

 

[MrNo]

For reference: my experience with syndie in PBEM so far is that, failing some kind of runner-based rush, you just sorta try to pull enough army together to stop your opponent's rush, and walk out of it with more econ than them. Basically the SC2 protoss vs. zerg strat. This means having stacks of indentured, overseers, enforcers, and guild assassins (exact army comp should be designed to face the opponent; you have the best scout in the game and should know what's coming) out by turn 20.

It's been pretty tight in most games I've played so far.

 

[NINJEW]

Ninjew exaggerates a bit when he says every game is done by turn 25; I'd say turn 30 is closer to the average, and it's usually by concession and not conquest.

ehhhhh i think that's entirely dependent on how much we're tryharding. i'd say the median game end turn is 25 on games where both players aren't messing around at all

However you like. But at turn 25, how on earth do you get those units? Some sort of fast settings?

decent economic optimization. sinsling is infamous for having t3s out before turn 20 but yeah typically you're looking at a mix of t1s and t2s with uh, let's call it 2.5 mods each. 18 unit armies because of how the adjacent hex rule works

Normal blitz, one army? That is aggressive. What other combos do you favor?

pretty much any combo has something going for it.

i've actually been streaming games recently and sins has streamed a few as well, you can watch through the VODs to see what we're about if you want

https://www.twitch.tv/ninjewtsusa

 

[orangelex44]

ehhhhh i think that's entirely dependent on how much we're tryharding. i'd say the median game end turn is 25 on games where both players aren't messing around at all

That works both ways though, there are a lot of games with concessions that aren't properly over. And not in the "fight until a win condition" sense, but where the game has just become favored to one side without being actually decided. There are a lot of games with a turn 20-25 concession that could easily go on another 10 turns.

 

[NINJEW]

i mean you can call it "a decisive battle has happened by turn 25" instead if you'd prefer