What are you using Espionage for?

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Gothbert

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Why should all 30 of them have a lvl 90 network on me? My neighbors? Maybe, if they are hostile towards me. An empire on the other end of the galaxy would surely have better targets than me. In EU IV for example, every empire could theoreticly smear my merchants but only those hostile to me do it. There are hundreds of nations in EU IV but i never got annoyed by an operations spam.

If you are a fanatic purifier that owns half the galaxy map, then you should expect everyone to be going after you. However, diplomatic opinion, distance, and empire power level should all be a factors in determining when the AI targets your empire (or any other) with building a spy network and running an operation against you.

So yeah, neither United Nations of Earth nor Commonwealth of Man should not have all 30+ other empires targeting them at once unless they are extremely large, powerful, and hated by everyone.
 
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Rhym3z

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I use it constantly. As a federation builder, I always struggle to get the last few points of acceptance for federation invitation even with maximum trust, all types of agreements and same rivals, so I am constantly extorting favours.
So I love it.

I just wish the last option (can't remember what it's called), starbase sabotage and smear campaign were buffed a lot.
 
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Dr. B

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I use Espionage to get rid of thousands and thousands of energy credits for no actual gain.

Instead of for example enacting campaigns, terraforming worlds, purchasing curator assistance, purchasing marauder fleets/admirals etc etc etc.
 
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Azhcristokos

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I don't have the DLC, so I'm just using it for intel. And honestly? I'm content with it. I have limited envoys and have to choose where to send them, what empire I desperately need intel on, while balancing the need for envoys to do actual diplomatic things.

So, the base game espionage is both unintrusive and very useful. A shame to see the paid parts are underwhelming.
 
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Porkdork

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I don't have the DLC, so I'm just using it for intel. And honestly? I'm content with it. I have limited envoys and have to choose where to send them, what empire I desperately need intel on, while balancing the need for envoys to do actual diplomatic things.

So, the base game espionage is both unintrusive and very useful. A shame to see the paid parts are underwhelming.
Wait, the operations are the only thing the DLC added to the Espionage mechanics? I paid 20€ for like... 9 operations from which 1 is actually usefull? Oh boy, PD got me again it seems.
 
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sotmh

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Like other people in this thread I only use Aquire Asset to increase the infiltration cap. I've tried the other operations, but the only useful thing about the system seems to be the intel you get from having high infiltration. Most of the other operations cost a mountain of energy and do nothing.
 
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Gothbert

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Wait, the operations are the only thing the DLC added to the Espionage mechanics? I paid 20€ for like... 9 operations from which 1 is actually usefull? Oh boy, PD got me again it seems.

The irony being that the game designer was boasting in a dev diary before this went live that Nemesis DLC was the biggest DLC they have worked on for Stellaris. I am truly shocked at just how few operations there are. I saw the list in previous dev diaries and just assumed those were the ones being shown but others existed or could be researched. Nope!
 
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Dr. B

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The irony being that the game designer was boasting in a dev diary before this went live that Nemesis DLC was the biggest DLC they have worked on for Stellaris. I am truly shocked at just how few operations there are. I saw the list in previous dev diaries and just assumed those were the ones being shown but others existed or could be researched. Nope!
To the credit of the developers, it is indeed a big update, a lot of work and a system that can work well.

It is just that they screwed up the implementation.
 
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Gothbert

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To the credit of the developers, it is indeed a big update, a lot of work and a system that can work well.

It is just that they screwed up the implementation.

I do think the espionage framework is solid. However, I think the number of operations is anemic and having to check every empire to see their espionage status is tedious. The lack of a central espionage window is just a simple design flaw. However, I am more concerned with pushing the creation of more operations onto modders rather than starting with a solid list of operations that people will find useful (i.e. more sabotage and provocation ops).
 
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MateuszS

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Passive intel, acquire asset and ocassionally extort favors or steal tech (although I managed to break encircling alliance by using smear campaign once). Sadly, there's no "gain claim/kill leader/support rebels/sabotage trade".
 
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fourteenfour

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To be honest it really comes off as half baked. There are no true spies, instead we have envoys repurposed into the role of spies. This in turn means that without real spies we don't have any real flavor from the side of who does the spying. No traits, not leveling, and such. Hence its just dull.

Then come the missions which seem to have expenses that don't scale in cost and that makes them look worthless to actually employ. Secondly they reused the sound effects from Archaeology which makes notifications a mess and a half. There is also no central spy authority which is my way of saying I want a tab off of F1 (empires) or F2 (Situation) where all my espionage network activities are. I want spies to be leaders whose limit is set by my buildings that I dedicate to their role, I want spies that are in defensive states as well as offensive states.

To be blunt, what we got looks like a pared down version of something better and sadly we have a one page design document left.

Now let me also say we cannot have a system which always intrudes on game play, lord knows we don't need more notification soup. However we desperately need a consolidate screen to manage ALL espionage. There needs to be spies either done as troops or done as leaders. Leaders would be much more fun as they can have traits but troop types could be assigned to the grunt work to support the leaders who are managing a specific operation. Think of it as this, you assign a leader then give him resources. All limited by what you build up on your planet or planets to support this type of play. Plus also a more advanced system could of course of have tiered espionage related buildings and such
 
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Nakkivene

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Wait, the operations are the only thing the DLC added to the Espionage mechanics? I paid 20€ for like... 9 operations from which 1 is actually usefull? Oh boy, PD got me again it seems.

Yep. Seems like new management, or perhaps all the talent bled out? This rip-off garbage is like something I'd expect EA to try to pull off.
 
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kwanzaabot

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Your answers are kind of depressing. So there is nothing i missed?
Why cant i assasinate researchers or enemy leaders? Why is there no option to create unrest or a civil war with espioange? Sad, i think thats a lot of missed potential.
Does anyone know a mod which gives better operations?
THISSSSSSSSSSSSSS
I thought this was supposed to be the space-CIA?

I can't attempt to assassinate space-Castro, there's no Operation for that.
I can't fund revolutionaries or counter-revolutionaries to drastically change the empire's Ethics, or install a puppet leader--or cause planets within the empire to declare independence from the main empire!
I can't plant false flags to start wars between two empires.
 
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monkeypunch87

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THISSSSSSSSSSSSSS
I thought this was supposed to be the space-CIA?

I can't attempt to assassinate space-Castro, there's no Operation for that.
I can't fund revolutionaries or counter-revolutionaries to drastically change the empire's Ethics, or install a puppet leader--or cause planets within the empire to declare independence from the main empire!
I can't plant false flags to start wars between two empires.
Yeah, they should tie this with a governmental shift (could be bad or good), if you kill the leader of an empire.
 
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Korp

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I just can't believe there is a line of thinking of "the system should be toothless, otherwise the AI might use it against the player!"
The system should not be toothless, but it should give a high ratio of enjoyment to the spying relative to the frustration of the afflicted. This is why most of the enjoyable operations are more about giving bonuses to the one running them rather than hurting the one they are being run on.

In fact any operation that causes overt damage, sabotage and the like, should probably be extremely situational so that they can be predicted and acted against. After all, it is not fun to just get a popup out of nowhere saying that some building was destroyed and now has to be replaced, especially since counterespionage is still just a black box.

Something like leader assasination seems like the worst of both worlds, extremely frustrating to have happen to you (especially if it is your best scientist) but from an outside perspective it does not accomplish much and gives no strategic opportunities. It is probably exactly the kind of operation you would want to avoid in a good espionage system.
 
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Porkdork

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Something like leader assasination seems like the worst of both worlds, extremely frustrating to have happen to you (especially if it is your best scientist) but from an outside perspective it does not accomplish much and gives no strategic opportunities. It is probably exactly the kind of operation you would want to avoid in a good espionage system.

I think it depends how it is designed. To kill a lvl 1 Scientiest might not be worth it but to kill a veteran general shortly before i declare war? It wont win the war on its own but would still help. Or the possibility to influence the internal politcs of an empire, promoting one faction, creating unrest or sabotaging the trade or economy would be great. And yes, i would like the AI to use such operations against me, there must be a balance ofc.

When i played yesterday one of my planets revolted (damn primitives) and after a huge slave army overrun my defenses the planet defected to a neighboring empire. That was the first time i have ever seen this, is this new? Like i said in the first post i havent played Stellaris since roughly one and a half year. That would be another nice operation for Espionage, after you found planets with unrest to support their independence.
 
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GloatingSwine

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Right now, farming favours to spend on council votes.

But what I really want to be able to do is promote specific ethics within other empires, creating and boosting their factions to make them more likely to overhaul their empires to be amenable to me in the long run.
 
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Right now, farming favours to spend on council votes.

But what I really want to be able to do is promote specific ethics within other empires, creating and boosting their factions to make them more likely to overhaul their empires to be amenable to me in the long run.

That was the operation I was missing most too, the ability to promote ethics.
 
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DrNukeLear

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The ONLY time I use espionage is when I can't achieve what I want through diplomacy or warfare. Normally against an overlord or federation ally I don't want.

The fact that I can't achieve what I want through espionage doesn't really help, but it makes me feel better.
 
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