What are the worst NI’s?

[petertju]

Leinster:
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Has anyone actually used Rebel Support at some point in any game? Is it any use?

 

[Snake_Squeezins]

People suggested Mantua's +20% female advisor chance as the worst idea, but they're neglecting to mention that the idea is actually:
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-10% idea cost for your second NI is not bad, and the Countess's Studiolo is objectively better than any idea that only gives a -5% discount. +25% cavalry flanking range might seem awful, but it can counteract the range-penalty from a unit being below full strength, and there are points in the game when cavalry can be worth using, especially when you have +cavalry combat strength, (which nations with +flanking range usually do).

I agree, and in the big post further up this page I was initially going to include a section on "bad or weird ideas that are rescued by having a nice supplemental bonus in the same tier." Because there are a number of them, actually.

Bergenz actually has two very niche features mixed into its first two tiers along with great bonuses:

Mongolia has one of the best tier titles filled with two mediocre bonuses, which taken together I guess averages into a decent tier:

 

[Snake_Squeezins]

Has anyone actually used Rebel Support at some point in any game? Is it any use?

Generally no. If you have a ton of money to burn then it can have some limited use. For example, if you steal the Constantinople area from Ottos and knock out their navy, but leave them with a Bulgaria or Greece they can't access, and if you build up their unrest via a long war, you can force the isolated areas to break away by supporting rebels. But again, this is expensive and probably isn't worth it most of the time.

 

[EarlKonrad]

I agree, and in the big post further up this page I was initially going to include a section on "bad or weird ideas that are rescued by having a nice supplemental bonus in the same tier." Because there are a number of them, actually.

Bergenz actually has two very niche features mixed into its first two tiers along with great bonuses:

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Mongolia has one of the best tier titles filled with two mediocre bonuses, which taken together I guess averages into a decent tier:

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I never quite understood reinforcement cost. Isn't it the case that reinforcing a 0 strength unit to 1000 strength cost as much (both in terms of ducats and manpower) as building a new regiment? If so, than isn't it the case that cheaper reinforcement means less ducats spent after battles? Granted, reinforcement cost will always be inferior to regiment cost reduction but reinforcement cost come in bigger numbers (as small as -10% all the way up to -25%) than regiment or even upkeep cost.

 

[Josar]

Has anyone actually used Rebel Support at some point in any game? Is it any use?

Byzantium can do this on Aegean islands held by wrong religion and culture nation like Venice, Genoa, and Naxos. They will fire byzantine seperatists, and because they are on islands the AI is very reluctant to send troops.

 

[Snake_Squeezins]

I never quite understood reinforcement cost. Isn't it the case that reinforcing a 0 strength unit to 1000 strength cost as much (both in terms of ducats and manpower) as building a new regiment? If so, than isn't it the case that cheaper reinforcement means less ducats spent after battles? Granted, reinforcement cost will always be inferior to regiment cost reduction but reinforcement cost come in bigger numbers (as small as -10% all the way up to -25%) than regiment or even upkeep cost.

That's my general understanding, as well - it's why your army expenses temporarily go way up after big battles. Reinforcement Cost as a bonus would be nice if you're relying on a huge manpower pool and Quantity ideas - you win via attrition and bleeding out your enemies. But if you do like most people and aim for Quality/Offensive and Discipline-heavy armies then it's not as nifty.

It's the combo of that and another pretty lame bonus (Envoy Travel Time) that makes a memorably mediocre-but-not-atrocious tier.

 

[Kanem Bornu]

I never quite understood reinforcement cost. Isn't it the case that reinforcing a 0 strength unit to 1000 strength cost as much (both in terms of ducats and manpower) as building a new regiment? If so, than isn't it the case that cheaper reinforcement means less ducats spent after battles? Granted, reinforcement cost will always be inferior to regiment cost reduction but reinforcement cost come in bigger numbers (as small as -10% all the way up to -25%) than regiment or even upkeep cost.

Reinforcement cost I think is actually a nice modifier on its own, and it stacks with other military cost reductions. The formula for reinforcement cost takes into account land maintenance and regiment cost modifiers.

I wouldn't pick it for a custom nation build or anything, but it's certainly not worthless.

 

[Kanem Bornu]

Has anyone actually used Rebel Support at some point in any game? Is it any use?

Not really. You can support rebels and then declare war to support them when they rise up. But I haven't used it in a very long time. In theory it could be a nice way to break up your rivals to separatists.. but generally speaking it's just better to take the land yourself.

 

[EarlKonrad]

That's my general understanding, as well - it's why your army expenses temporarily go way up after big battles. Reinforcement Cost as a bonus would be nice if you're relying on a huge manpower pool and Quantity ideas - you win via attrition and bleeding out your enemies. But if you do like most people and aim for Quality/Offensive and Discipline-heavy armies then it's not as nifty.

It's the combo of that and another pretty lame bonus (Envoy Travel Time) that makes a memorably mediocre-but-not-atrocious tier.

Got it.

You know I think that Envoy travel time is actually rather good. Of course its value varies a lot depending on your position but I think that it is generally better than most make it to be. By the mid/late game, when you are a sizeable blob, having diplomats travel faster can be quite useful as you invariably have to increase relations a lot, send gifts, take debts and influence nations to avoid coalitions. It isn't rare for diplomats to spend 50+ days traveling so decreasing it by 25% is saving you quite a lot of days. Additionally, this modifier is rather scarce so can't really go out of your way to get it (aside from taking influence). Finally, it now also applies to colonists whose travel time can take upwards for a year and a half.

Yes, where your Capital is located and if you are colonizing or not influences the usefulness of this bonus a lot. In Yuan case, for example, your Capital is situated close to China and you are expected to conquer all the way to the Balkans so your diplomats will have to hit those legs if they want to be of any use.

 

[Snake_Squeezins]

You know I think that Envoy travel time is actually rather good.

I definitely don't hate it. But maybe if the whole tier was -25% Envoy Travel Time, I would. It's not like *Mongolia* is getting bang for the buck in colonizing faraway provinces with that time savings.

 

[Cancerofthehead]

I definitely don't hate it. But maybe if the whole tier was -25% Envoy Travel Time, I would. It's not like *Mongolia* is getting bang for the buck in colonizing faraway provinces with that time savings.

Envoy travel time does not impact colonists, only diplomats and merchants. And Mongolia is often a tag that is sending a lot of diplomats long distances so they can benefit from it.

 

[EarlKonrad]

Envoy travel time does not impact colonists, only diplomats and merchants. And Mongolia is often a tag that is sending a lot of diplomats long distances so they can benefit from it.

Yes it does. Since 1.28.3 and the wiki is wrong on this. I'll double check in game and will edit this post with my findings.

Patch 1.28.X - Europa Universalis 4 Wiki

eu4.paradoxwikis.com

EDIT: Custom Nation with capital on Haiti, 40% Envoy Travel time as my first unlockable idea (not tradition)

Normally sending a colonist to Mayaiami, Florida, takes 26 days.
With 40% Envoy Travel time reduction (from NI) it goes down to 16 days.
With an additional 20% reduction from Viceroys (Exploration fifth idea) it goes down to 11 days.

Conclusion: It just works.

 

[LegacyCWAL]

Apparently only two nations have a chance to get female ideas (why Orleans don't have this idea is beyond me) and neither of them are penalised for having it. There is also "may recruit female general" which I'd rank as worse than female advisor because in the case of the general you just get a female name and the female icon, no pretty picture.

Custom nations on the other hand have to spend a slot for either of these ideas, unfortunately.

Actually, female advisor chance can be really strong for custom nations because of how the points system works. If more than half your 'levels' are from a single category, your ideas will cost more points...but female advisor chance costs 0, is admin, and can be taken up to level 10, allowing you to cram in more military ideas.

 

[petertju]

You know, I actually like many traditional filler ideas. +1 prestige or legitimacy isn't as bad as it sounds.

In my opinion many covert actions improvements or related actions are high on the list

Embargo Efficiency, Foreign Spy Detection, Justify Trade Conflict, Support Rebels. Just because these actions are really not that strong any ideas on them are also the worst and have really no positive to it.

 

[cuendillar]

Not really. You can support rebels and then declare war to support them when they rise up. But I haven't used it in a very long time. In theory it could be a nice way to break up your rivals to separatists.. but generally speaking it's just better to take the land yourself.

This is pretty much the way I could see myself using it too. In particular, doing it with pretenders (in the junior partner) to break up PUs is situationally powerful. Not only could that effectively cut a hostile country's strength in half, but missions that would normally give a PU cb gives only a few permaclaims if the target nation isn't independent. Breaking out Hungary from Austria, Lithuania from Poland or even Aragon from Castille also severely cripple those nations.

 

[EarlKonrad]

You know, I actually like many traditional filler ideas. +1 prestige or legitimacy isn't as bad as it sounds.

In my opinion many covert actions improvements or related actions are high on the list

Embargo Efficiency, Foreign Spy Detection, Justify Trade Conflict, Support Rebels. Just because these actions are really not that strong any ideas on them are also the worst and have really no positive to it.

+ Legitimacy is one of those things that you either never need more of or desperately need it. It can be useful if you happen to have a regency (to counteract the -2 yearly), switch government type or have a weak/moderate heir. However for the most part this bonus is wasted by being at permanently 100 legitimacy.

 

[Maxxie42]

Has anyone actually used Rebel Support at some point in any game? Is it any use?

Back in the day, Supporting rebels used to be extremely useful, because it was trivial to cheese. If you were at war with someone and rebels popped up in their land, you could support them (even though they had already risen), you could select how much money you gave them via a slider (which you could set a 0 ducats/month and it would still count) and it would instantaneously treat those rebels as allied armies (i.e. you could stand on the same province as them without triggering a battle). So essentially, you would pay a grand total of zero ducats to be able to ignore the enemy's rebels entirely.

It got nerfed a first time, but it was still situationally useful because by paying large amounts of money, you could spawn rebel stacks large enough that the target nation couldn't deal with them at all, and eventually they would lose land. On top of weakening the target nation, you could then attack the breakaway nation before it had any alliances.

Then it got a second nerf, and now it's so useless that I'm not sure anyone would notice if they scrapped the feature altogether.

 

[petertju]

+ Legitimacy is one of those things that you either never need more of or desperately need it. It can be useful if you happen to have a regency (to counteract the -2 yearly), switch government type or have a weak/moderate heir. However for the most part this bonus is wasted by being at permanently 100 legitimacy.

I agree, it really isn't good or anything, but it has positive aspects. I will be slightly happy to have it. Compared to the other ones I mentioned, which have no use what so ever.