What are the top badass countries of WW2?

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Tharkun

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Hard to say. Depends if the post was genuine opinion, or just posted to stir things up. It's difficult to tell. To be honest,I find it difficult to believe someone could truly believe ALL of those remarks with genuine sincerity. Do you really believe all of that? For real?

I suspect the remark that trully got to you was that Britain chose the wrong side, and you included the other two in for good meassure. Saying that the US lacked good generals and soldiers is not an unreasonable opinion. Same for expecting a nation to fight for their dignity with every available means regardless of the odds.
 

Scutatus

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I suspect the remark that trully got to you was that Britain chose the wrong side, and you included the other two in for good meassure. Saying that the US lacked good generals and soldiers is not an unreasonable opinion. Same for expecting a nation to fight for their dignity with every available means regardless of the odds.

I notice you didn't answer my question.

And yes, you are correct, I do not agree with your assessment of Britain. But then, you know full well not many would. They fought against Fascism, holding on from the beginning of the war until the end, despite poor manpower and resources, despite the overwhelmingly superior enemy being just twenty miles away all that time. They may not have always made the best decisions but they hang in there through thin and thinner. Britain bankrupted itself keeping that war going no matter what, so that the war could eventually be won by the allies. Whether you favour the Germans or not, how is that achievement - to give your all for a cause and hold out - in any way mediocre? If anything, surely Hitler would have approved? I am not saying that you have to state that the British were the bees knees, but come on, to name them amongst the worst? To call them mediocre in all things? Wow.

And you also surely knew the weakness of Denmark too, but that didn't stop you having a dig at them. What were they supposed to do? Fight for a few days just for the sake of it and get so many of themselves slaughtered for nothing? Denmark is not a big country and the overwhelming might of Germany was right next door. How was it supposed to hold out? With the equivalent of just one division? Yes, defending your country is all right and proper - but only so long as there is actual hope of success, however slim. There was no hope for Denmark. When faced with overwhelming defeat and nothing but the slaughter of your people, there is no dignity left in fighting on. Only death.

I note that you scorn Britain for holding out and giving it's all, but then also scorn Denmark because they didn't. Do make your mind up.

As for America - yeah they had bad generals - but then so did Germany. They had lacklustre troops - but so did Germany. America also had good generals and good troops. As did Germany. Your broad all encompassing statement was a little...harsh? And yes, they spammed the battlefield with vast numbers of metal, quantity over quality. But it worked didn't it?

For the record, I am not disputing your claim that Germany was "bad ass" - sure, fair enough. I'm just not so sure you have a good approach with your "worst" list.
 
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Stolen Rutters

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America!

"I want you to remember that no bastard ever won a war by dying for his country. He won it by making the other poor, dumb bastard die for his country." - George C. Scott in the movie Patton

Yah, and the British, and the French, and the Polish, and the Indians, and Germans and Japanese, etc., etc.
 

Kovax

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Not only is it not common knowledge, it's not true. The SS was a political miltia. It was not selected for eliteness, it was selected for their zealotry to the Nazi cause.
The fundamental difference between the Wehrmacht and the SS was that the former was sworn to defend Germany from all foes, inside and out; the latter was sworn to defend Adolf Hitler. In effect, they were initially recruited as Hitler's personal bodyguards, and expanded from there into a semi-autonomous and semi-elite (less of the latter as time went on) branch of the military, because Hitler had legitimate concerns that his own army would depose or kill him....which they attempted on at least 3 occasions.

To try to put the Budapest issue into context, Hungary had repeatedly refused Hitler's demands to close the borders to refugees from Poland, Czechoslovakia, and a few of Hitler's other early conquests, and Budapest became a temporary home for well over 100,000 such refugees fleeing from persecution at the hands of the Nazis. The Germany army carried out several military operations through Hungary before occupying the country directly, and within Hungary as the Soviets advanced, but several SS units were stationed in Budapest on account of those refugees, and that primarily non-military operation was stepped up near the end before the Soviets could interfere. Those SS units were not there to fight the Soviets, not there to protect Hungary, and not welcomed by the Hungarian government (at least those who hadn't already been arrested or killed by the Nazis) or most of the general population. It's not permitted to discuss that operation in further detail here on the forum. Calling that "defense of Hungary" is beyond wrong, and using that as an example of "badass" conduct is insulting. Note, I'm not from there, in case you're attributing this to educational propaganda, although several of my great-great-grandparents were, and I visited the country once.

Many of the old Prussian-style German generals, back when an officer could refuse an order on moral grounds, could be considered "badass"; many of the "just following orders" latecomers were just "bad" in the wrong way. At the start of the war, there were still enough of the "old guard" to retain Germany's "badass" status; by the end, that was mostly dead, discredited, or otherwise out of favor with the new leadership. Sadly, it's that late politically polarized group who seem to draw all of the enthusiasm, despite making a rather poor showing in combat, rather than the old group who almost succeeded in defeating the world, and hated the "Little Corporal" who constantly interfered with the professional running of a war.

While India's decision not to exploit the UK's crisis may be admirable, I wouldn't put it in the "badass" category. A few of the Gurkha units (if I got the spelling right) had a fearsome reputation, and could certainly be considered "badass", but I wouldn't extend that to their entire military or country. Finland's determined struggle against the Soviets would seem to make them a much better candidate for the title.
 
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GeneralPetrov

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Britain, for taking the wrong side
nick-young-confused-face-300x256_nqlyaa.png
 
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TheRomanRuler

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Yes, that's exactly right. Fanatical nazis joined the SS, including non-german fanatical nazis.

I'm glad to see you understand it now.
People like Lauri Törni are just examples, inviduals used becouse public can symphatise with one person better than thousands. And people like Larry Thorne AKA Lauri Törni certainly were not fanatical nazis.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lauri_Törni
Lauri Törni is perhaps best example of them all about people who joined SS to fight Communism, he first fought in Finnish army and when Finland`s war ended, he joined SS to fight communists. After Germany surrendered he escaped from allied POW camp to join USA army and fight communists.
Do you also think that Napoleon was short becouse in all pictures he is shorter than his bodyguards, or do you happen to know that Napoleon´s bodyguards were taller than average? Things are NOT black and white. Never. And even that "never" is not black and white. Even white is not always white, becouse it is made up of all colors, and black is not always black becouse if you paint all colors together you get black. So nothing is black and white, and that includes what i just said about things being black and white, becouse world would be stupid without some black and white stuff here and there.
 
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TheRomanRuler

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Britain chose wrong side if you were born in axis nation and did not know anything more than anyone else. In war, people who oppose you always seem to be wrong. Nobody has ever fought on wrong side of the war, everybody always thinks they are fighting on the right side.
But he brought up actually a good point: Britain did have world`s largest empire, but to win the war they had to loose it. In Imperialist point of view, Britain was biggest looser of them all, Germany is today leading economical power in Europe, but Britain lacks her empire.
But i am not yet agreeing with him, too complicated matter. What i do know is that British did do lot of badass things, but then again, so did Bersaglieri of Italy. Dunno.
 

PanosB3

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People like Lauri Törni are just examples, inviduals used becouse public can symphatise with one person better than thousands. And people like Larry Thorne AKA Lauri Törni certainly were not fanatical nazis.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lauri_Törni
Lauri Törni is perhaps best example of them all about people who joined SS to fight Communism, he first fought in Finnish army and when Finland`s war ended, he joined SS to fight communists. After Germany surrendered he escaped from allied POW camp to join USA army and fight communists.
Do you also think that Napoleon was short becouse in all pictures he is shorter than his bodyguards, or do you happen to know that Napoleon´s bodyguards were taller than average? Things are NOT black and white. Never. And even that "never" is not black and white. Even white is not always white, becouse it is made up of all colors, and black is not always black becouse if you paint all colors together you get black. So nothing is black and white, and that includes what i just said about things being black and white, becouse world would be stupid without some black and white stuff here and there.

That still proves the other guy's point though, there were very few examples of non-Nazis who joined the SS to fight the USSR or the ''Communists''.

BTW I think all of us should really stop we are getting out of topic, perhaps arrange a new thread to discuss this subject since I wouldn't like to ruin the fun of this thread over a small dispute between fellow history lovers :).
 

TheRomanRuler

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It doesn't matter what anyone thinks about the law. Even if you don't agree with the law you need to comply with it. (if you live in the EU)
I used that law as an example to refute what the OP was suggesting.
First part of your message sounds exactly what people said in Nazi Germany. Second part makes sense, i am glad you did not leave that out. And i know that you used it as example, but since the law is crappy in many ways, i told you that.
 

TheRomanRuler

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That still proves the other guy's point though, there were very few examples of non-Nazis who joined the SS to fight the USSR or the ''Communists''.

BTW I think all of us should really stop we are getting out of topic, perhaps arrange a new thread to discuss this subject since I wouldn't like to ruin the fun of this thread over a small dispute between fellow history lovers :).
Yes we can stop talking about it. But one thing: how does it prove his point? I am confused. I said he is one of many, you say it proves his point. What am i missing? Or do we talk about that on another thread?
 

jcd000

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I will synonimize badassery with overachieving.. So:
Finland
Germany
SU
Greece

in that order.


PS. not for SU overachieving in the early war. but what the red army managed to become over the course of the war and what it managed to overcome must count for overachieving....
 
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keynes2.0

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Things are NOT black and white.

What, you mean like claiming that the SS were doing nothing but fighting communism and weren't interested in protecting Nazism?

Generally I find that someone who is trying to excuse the inexcusable will quickly resort to attacking the very concept of knowledge. Oh you can't label the SS Nazis because really, who can generalize about large groups like that. Oh militarism is really just about love of country so who is to say a war of destruction and unspeakable evil is any different from soviets defending a brutal regime. Dont you know they love each other in evilstan too. Sure it's true things aren't clear cut. But the fact that they aren't clear cut doesn't mean that the SS didn't occupy an extreme position on the scale of evil. That doesn't change the overall picture which was that the SS was a nazi militia tasked with filling Nazi priorities.

If you want to delude yourself by attacking the notion of truth, you can do that. Germany lost the war and the guys who believe in free speech were on the winning side. But if you want to stop looking like an ignorant Nazi appologist you should stop spouting nonsense about the SS not being Nazis. Ignorance is a choice you are free to make but it's a bad choice.

But the choice of ignorance is one you will have to make without me. I dont find a dime a dozen SS apologist interesting enough to continue this conversation.
 
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Kovax

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But if you want to stop looking like an ignorant Nazi appologist you should stop spouting nonsense about the SS not being Nazis.
Well, I'm sure that somewhere there was one SS guy who was not really a "Nazi", he was just misunderstood. You can't give a blanket condemnation of the actions of tens or hundreds of thousands of individuals just because 99.9% of them were clearly in the wrong.....

I would place a fairly large number of Japanese troops in the "Badass" group, because of absolutely fanatical adherence to their principles and beliefs, but that doesn't extend to the entire nation, where a bunch of spoiled brat officers at the top of the army and navy each had to be more important than the other guy, and essentially undid the hard work and sacrifices of the junior officers and soldiers under them. When you read about finding a Japanese spotter on an island 20 years after the war, still relaying information on a radio that no longer worked, unaware that the war had been over for decades, THAT is fanatical, and possibly "badass".
 
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First part of your message sounds exactly what people said in Nazi Germany. Second part makes sense, i am glad you did not leave that out. And i know that you used it as example, but since the law is crappy in many ways, i told you that.

Name a single democratic country which cares about you not agreeing with it's laws.
Laws are laws. You can disagree with them, but they are still laws. You get punished if you brake them.
If you have problem with a law you can talk about it openly without the fear of punishment, and you can even try to change it using legal means. You however CAN'T break it.

Example:
You can say that "I don't agree with the law about XY."
You however can't say that "XY didn't happen" in public.(you can still say it privately.)

If you can't comprehend the difference between this, and the "legal" system of Nazi Germany(or any dictatorship for that matter), well than that's your loss and not mine.
 
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TheRomanRuler

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What, you mean like claiming that the SS were doing nothing but fighting communism and weren't interested in protecting Nazism?

Generally I find that someone who is trying to excuse the inexcusable will quickly resort to attacking the very concept of knowledge. Oh you can't label the SS Nazis because really, who can generalize about large groups like that. Oh militarism is really just about love of country so who is to say a war of destruction and unspeakable evil is any different from soviets defending a brutal regime. Dont you know they love each other in evilstan too. Sure it's true things aren't clear cut. But the fact that they aren't clear cut doesn't mean that the SS didn't occupy an extreme position on the scale of evil. That doesn't change the overall picture which was that the SS was a nazi militia tasked with filling Nazi priorities.

If you want to delude yourself by attacking the notion of truth, you can do that. Germany lost the war and the guys who believe in free speech were on the winning side. But if you want to stop looking like an ignorant Nazi appologist you should stop spouting nonsense about the SS not being Nazis. Ignorance is a choice you are free to make but it's a bad choice.

But the choice of ignorance is one you will have to make without me. I dont find a dime a dozen SS apologist interesting enough to continue this conversation.
Ehm.... Not even sure what to say anymore. I was not saying SS was not nazi militia that did not serve Nazi party in Nazi party´s goals. Soldier can volunteer to fight communism and also carry out orders to fight the French, or do something else. As i said, things are not black and white.
Of course SS was nazi militia. Never denied that. But since things are not black and white, this nazi militia is not filled with fanatical nazis only.

You are not thinking objectively. You are thinking in black and white manner. Just becouse i am saying that many, if not most, SS joined SS for other motives besides being fanatical nazis, you label me as nazi apologist. That makes you ignorant, just becouse i have different opinion as you do, does not make me nazi apologist.

No need to be such extremist, just becouse i am not saying that 200% of SS were fiercely loyal fanatical nazis does not make me nazi aplogist.

And btw, in Nurnberg trials it was even said that greatest evil is not committed by evil people, but regular people who *various things*. That is becouse there are very few evil people, and very few extremists. People who turn the blind eye and don`t think twice on other hand, are plentiful.
 
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TheRomanRuler

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If you can't comprehend the difference between this, and the "legal" system of Nazi Germany(or any dictatorship for that matter), well than that's your loss and not mine.
I recommend reading my post again. Like i said, it is only the first part that makes no sense. With second part, it does. But in democracy, it actually DOES matter what people think about the law. Unpopular law is one thing, that is sometimes necessary, but unfair law is another.
 

DazKaz

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Interestingly, 4 000 Danes died fighting against Soviet Union under Germans, but only 44 died while defending Denmark against Germany. And I believe almost as many Danes served under Germany than defended Denmark against Germans.

The Danish government, and a large number of its population (not all), did a magnificent job of defending their Jewish population from the Nazis, at great risk to themselves, even when their occupation laws were becoming more and more oppressive because of their unwillingness to cooperate on that regard.
Not entirely a "badass" nation, but not a bad one either.

I have no Danish blood in me by the way, just think it deserves recognition.
 
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scroggin

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Not sure if there is anything i can say in these forums.

You think too much about motives. Motive does not mean anything, as everyone is always trying to fight evil and be good guys. Every Nazi was thinking that, like Communists and everyone else on planet. And most SS volunteered to fight communism, not to fight for Nazis. So what matters to me here is that Germans were defending Hungary, if unwilling ally, against Soviet Union, their common enemy. Any other operations in the area don`t have any military importance.
I think you are thinking with your heart, how ever golden and pure that may be, it is not objective.
And what are we supposed to think of that........ Nice snake, you bit a crocodile?
 
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