What are the interests for new nations in AOD?

[Commander666]

Getting Ceylon as a separate country into the game is an excellent idea. I always disliked that liberating India results in Colombo and Trincomalee being part of the new nation of India, but India can neither supply Ceylon nor transport away the rares there. For the player who puppeted India they get another resource depot they can not access cluttering their convoy list and convoy problems such as often no oil will stockpile there in significant volume if trying to base ships on Ceylon. Basically, the puppeting of India effectively wipes out the most useful bases in the Indian Ocean while greatly reducing rares. I think an independent Ceylon would fix both problems.

 

[Lord Jarski]

Ceylon has been in the game for a long time already. It is just rarely seen due to it being UK cores and later on becoming part of India like you mentioned. Japan can easily liberate it though after conquering the island.

 

[Pioniere]

Yes Ceylon must have been in hoi2 since the early days of hoi2 doomsday. This Sri lanka federation that Japan could liberate via event is an idea for game flavor not much more.

I think this American puppet might have been somewhat intresting If we were to split up America.

from the tv series Amerika

 

[Commander666]

Ceylon has been in the game for a long time already. It is just rarely seen due to it being UK cores and later on becoming part of India like you mentioned. Japan can easily liberate it though after conquering the island.

Thanks for the info. Wasn't aware of it as I liberate very little as Japan. With Indonesia and Malaysia claimed, extra rares from Ceylon really are not that great a priority as is efficient replenishment for ships based on Colombo. This requires the stockpiling of oil, something a small country like liberated Ceylon can't manage and, AFAIK, running the special "bright green" supply convoys to take care of anything based at other country also will not result in substantial oil stockpiled. So it can be days with fleet sitting at Colombo (or Trincomalee) to replenish if that is not Japanese controlled.

When it comes to Japan being able to liberate India then it would be most handy to prevent Ceylon becoming part of India. But I can't remember last time I played a game as Japan that included getting India. Usually I focus the other way - into the Pacific, and let Germany get that manpower gift.

Still, the idea of a Ceylon puppet for Japan is quite nice... if only convoys could be made to act properly and pre-position oil and supplies ahead of demand.

 

[Pang Bingxun]

I donnot see the problem. A puppet Ceylon just needs to get enough oil and possibly enough supplies(here becomes the smallness of the puppet relevant) via regular trade or via open negotiations.

 

[Commander666]

There is no problem for Ceylon. The problem exits for IJN (or any other nation) using Ceylon as a forward base to patrol the Indian Ocean. We can expect such fleets to come into port after a month and demand a huge amount of supplies and oil.

Ceylon will not have that - therefore no full replenishment will probably occur even weeks later... unless owner of fleet runs a special supply convoy to Ceylon, or gifts Ceylon the needed oil/supplies, or long ago set up very favorable trade for Ceylon so that it has managed to stockpile enough. This is in marked contrast to the situation that would exist if owner of fleet also controlled Ceylon. In that case it is a normal convoy, and one simply turns the convoy up to 100, or 200, or a ridiculous 500 merchant ships if you want... and at midnight you will have all the supplies/oil the replenishing fleet needs stockpiled in Ceylon.... and now it takes only a day more for that fleet to take on same.

The above situation needs to be compared to the special convoys (bright green) that can be set up to replenish player's units based at other countries - such as an independent or puppet Ceylon. In my experience, those bright green convoys do not turn up to a very large amount to quickly transfer huge amounts of oil/supplies. As the bright green special convoys are the only convoy option if player does not control Ceylon, expect a replenishment time of a week or more instead of a couple days.

So the problem is: Fleet is not ready for continued action until a week or more later. This creates a serious lack of patrol coverage that can result in enemy penetrating the patrol screen. The real problem will be when a RN CTF starts sinking Japanese TPs around Indonesia because patrolling of the Indian Ocean failed due to poor replenishment at Ceylon. Of course, you could base the fleet back at Rangoon, but then patrolling the Red Sea to insure no Allied fleet can leave the Med that way is impossible. After all, that was the whole point in taking Colombo. But its not worth much unless it comes with an appropriate means of re-supply.

Regular trade is not a favorable option since several fleets will vary replenishment needs, and 3-4 fleets coming at near same time will still wipe out Ceylon's stockpile established by guess work trading amounts set up over a long time estimate.

Open Negotiations works - unless you can't do any diplomatic action until allowed. So you might have 2nd fleet sitting a week waiting for minister to arrive because you just did open negotiations for earlier fleet (but didn't notice other fleet also heading for port). Such oversights easily happen in war, but if you control Ceylon these kinds of screws ups are not even encountered.

 

[Pang Bingxun]

There is no problem for Ceylon. The problem exits for IJN (or any other nation) using Ceylon as a forward base to patrol the Indian Ocean. We can expect such fleets to come into port after a month and demand a huge amount of supplies and oil.

[...]This is in marked contrast to the situation that would exist if owner of fleet also controlled Ceylon. In that case it is a normal convoy, and one simply turns the convoy up to 100, or 200, or a ridiculous 500 merchant ships if you want... and at midnight you will have all the supplies/oil the replenishing fleet needs stockpiled in Ceylon.... and now it takes only a day more for that fleet to take on same.

But such a convoy would only properly turn on after the fleet has arrived. The supplies should be there before the fleet arrives. This is easier achieved with a puppet Ceylon.

 

[Commander666]

Yes, but I think it might be more trouble insuring puppet always has the amounts needed as we are discussing oil/supplies in the several thousand. Instead of managing a convoy when a fleet comes in, now you need manage a puppet constantly to be able to give full service whenever a fleet comes in because other alliance member fleets can come in anytime and consume the 5000 oil and 5000 supplies you may have gifted to puppet. It still comes down to perhaps needing to do Diplomatic Negotiations but maybe minister not available for up to a week. That kind of possible screw up is not tolerable to my demands for efficient and problem free replenishment.

Besides, even if you control Ceylon, much supply/oil will be in place as result of the last replenishment setting that up as it finishes. So your newly arrived fleet also starts replenishing immediately.

 

[Commander666]

The supplies should be there before the fleet arrives.

I just like to reiterate that the above concern is also best addressed by not puppeting Ceylon and running normal convoys. Of course supplies should be there ahead of time so replenishment begins immediately. This is achieved with normal convoys because - after any fleet is fully replenished - replenishment continues to restock the supply depot and leave it with about as much oil/supplies as was just transferred to any fleet. So depot is ready to receive next fleet. Depot should maintain stocks at about the average need it has noticed during past fleet replenishment.

HAPPY NEW YEAR to ALL!

 

[Pang Bingxun]

Depot should maintain stocks at about the average need it has noticed during past fleet replenishment.

But is that how it actually works? The supply convoys works such, that there is a maximum value, above which supplies(and probably oil) will not be transfered to the target even though enough transports are available. This maximum value depends on the need recorded to occur between 23 hours and midnight. A puppet ceylon suffers no such problem.

 

[Commander666]

According to you, no depot would ever stock very much since the “need” registered and put into stockpile next day is always taken out with fleet replenishing next day. And if at 23:00 fleet is nearly full, little need is registered, only a little more is put into stockpile, and same is taken out with finishing replenishment. Stockpile never grows.

But depots do grow (depending on who visits), and depots do vary greatly in the amounts they stockpile. That must have happened somehow.

Definitely depots respond to “need” recorded as you explained. But something further is going on that results in certain depots with higher demands put on them stockpiling much more than average.

 

[Pang Bingxun]

And if at 23:00 fleet is nearly full, little need is registered,

This is probably not how it works. I have not investigated it in detail, but i am afraid that the registered need does not depend on the difference between current stockpile and the max stockpile of the (naval) divisions. It does depend on current consumption instead of the possible gross ontake of supplies. If that is so, than resupplying a huge fleet with near zero supplies remaining is rather uncomfortable.

 

[Commander666]

I have not investigated it in detail, ...

Have you noticed that often you and I end up being very OT in other people's threads? While we got onto this specific topic in an OK manner by it being mentioned and so became part of the discussion, the continued detailed discussion of how depots work is completely OT here, and I don't care to continue such incorrect behavior. It has gone way past discussing Ceylon which was the topic.

 

[Pioniere]

It has gone way past discussing Ceylon which was the topic.

Speaking of Ceylon what do you think of Formosa as a puppet? It is somewhat before the 1936 timeline.

As Japan, I usually prefer to keep Formosa for myself, but it might be an alternative puppet instead for liberating Mengjiang. In most games as Japan, I likes to have China as my workhorse so that I can get many allied infantry. Formosa is just an idea and not part of the 1.11 project even so it would nice to hear a few comments.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Republic_of_Formosa

 

[stevep]

Speaking of Ceylon what do you think of Formosa as a puppet? It is somewhat before the 1936 timeline.

As Japan, I usually prefer to keep Formosa for myself, but it might be an alternative puppet instead for liberating Mengjiang. In most games as Japan, I likes to have China as my workhorse so that I can get many allied infantry. Formosa is just an idea and not part of the 1.11 project even so it would nice to hear a few comments.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Republic_of_Formosa

Pioniere

Haven't been active for a while and don't know that much about the Pacific theatre but it seems like if Japan doesn't want to other countries might be interested in Formosa/Taiwan as a puppet. Most likely, similar to OTL, if China was to go communist then the US or some other anti-communist power might like it as an ally/puppet, either as a rival 'China' or as a non-Chinese state.

Steve

 

[Commander666]

what do you think of Formosa as a puppet? It is somewhat before the 1936 timeline. As Japan, I usually prefer to keep Formosa for myself,

It is a good idea and I would not worry about the timeline too much. I think the greatest hindrance to all Japanese puppets is the dissent to liberate them... unless it occurs via event as is the case with conquering China and then getting that puppet.

Consider, "would any player of Japan ever liberate Mengkukuo unless it happened via event so it was dissent free"? I think Ceylon and Formosa need be handled same way or most Japan players won't liberate them. In the case of Formosa not liberated, two GAR easily takes care of the dissent. What would Formosa ever contribute to the Japanese empire other than eventually one of those GAR might be removable because a newly created Formosa division can then defend one of its own 2 beaches?

The other great problem is the limited build queue that is usually scripted for these small puppets who have little MP. A new INF division is rather useless if that means nothing more can build because all MP consumed. However, highly strategic places like Formosa and Ceylon could be extremely valuable if they built SS, DDs, FTRs or NAVs. Those units should be at same tech as player (and the DDs with ASW).

 

[Commander666]

...it seems like if Japan doesn't want to other countries might be interested in Formosa/Taiwan as a puppet.

That is an interesting different idea but, as the island is controlled by Japan from game start, I don't think the Japanese would willingly give it away to some one else, or release it as an independent nation. Pioniere's idea, I think, is that Japan "create new nation" so it is the independent nation of Formosa, but it becomes a puppet of Japan... meaning it is not released to do as it likes such as leaving the alliance if there is no war.

The island is claimed by the Chinese, and strangely, when Japan conquers the Chinese and annexes some of their territory in AoD, the Fall of the Dragon event chain results in the island being given to the Chinese. Why does victor give possessions to loser? I think it is rather mixed up, but it's all fictitious anyway since Japan never conquered China. But the creation of Formosa as a puppet of Japan tied to the Fall of the Dragon events seems sensible to me.

 

[stevep]

That is an interesting different idea but, as the island is controlled by Japan from game start, I don't think the Japanese would willingly give it away to some one else, or release it as an independent nation. Pioniere's idea, I think, is that Japan "create new nation" so it is the independent nation of Formosa, but it becomes a puppet of Japan... meaning it is not released to do as it likes such as leaving the alliance if there is no war.

The island is claimed by the Chinese, and strangely, when Japan conquers the Chinese and annexes some of their territory in AoD, the Fall of the Dragon event chain results in the island being given to the Chinese. Why does victor give possessions to loser? I think it is rather mixed up, but it's all fictitious anyway since Japan never conquered China. But the creation of Formosa as a puppet of Japan tied to the Fall of the Dragon events seems sensible to me.

Commander666

I was thinking more of someone, almost certainly the US, conquering Formosa from Japan but wishing to keep it separate from mainland China. Most likely because the latter may have gone communist as OTL. Possibly a different terminology would apply there however?

 

[Commander666]

Yes, that makes sense. The USA would "liberate" the island. But that is still the same terminology in AoD because USA would also use "Create New Nation" and that would result in Formosa then ending up being a puppet (same as Philippines). Afterwards any puppet can be "released" which changes the previous relationship in important ways.

The intent - to remove or "cleave off" something included in a larger political entity - is the identical reason I support the creation of Ceylon... so it does not end up being part of India. Yes, there are numerous AoD reasons why Formosa should not be part of mainland China depending whatever side we are discussing. In fact, the game has room for not just Formosa but the alternative of Taiwan depending on what year it is.

Now I wonder what magic Poiniere might have for Tasmania which suffers from the typical AoD late game bad scripting so that the relatively big nation of Australia can't even run resource convoys to there if AUS gets annexed, and then liberated. The liberator gets saddled with yet another totally useless resource depot (Tasmania) cluttering his convoy listing.

Perhaps the new nation of Lutriwita could be created to carry the original name for the island which would be far better cleaved from AUS as a liberated AUS makes zero use of the place.

 

[Pioniere]

I never liberate Mengkukuo for Japan I would go for u87 or a japan pro CHI instead.

Tasmania sorry to disappoint you there, but I have plans for an Australian federation that Japan can liberate via event only. The idea is that Australia is somewhat fare away from Japan, but Japan will not give Australia fully independent statues so instead it becomes a puppet federation under Japanese supervision. Therefore, it gets a cabinet with PA and FA ministers mostly Australians, but the minister of security is from japan. This puppet could also have cores on Papua New Guinea.
Its only planned for a mod and not planned for AOD 1.11.

Australian federation

I do not think we should focus much more on new nations for AOD in 1.11. If there comes a 1.12 I would make few more if possible. Then we might see Formosa and a American rumpstate.
It would be hard to find leaders and ministers to Formosa I think.