What are the game mechanics behind surrendering?

[unmerged(184977)]

@Buh the Ghost

Interesting.
Since you're at it, did you consider puting ita into allies or commitern and see if it's "in faction" status or is it just "being with" (Germany) that matters?

Also, you might try setting both ita and ger as minors and see the case where germany SHOULD NOT but still did ( judged by common sence, by logic, number of vp's etc.) still does after being reduced to minor. Also what if ger became a minor and buffed up ita got promoted to major?


Again, guessess ... food for thought I'd say ;P

 

[Buh the Ghost]

@Buh the Ghost

Interesting.
Since you're at it, did you consider puting ita into allies or commitern and see if it's "in faction" status or is it just "being with" (Germany) that matters?

If Germany is in no faction and:
Italy is in Axis makes Germany need one more province (12) to get SCH.
Italy is in Allies doesn't make any difference (still 11 provinces incl. capital).
Italy is in Comintern doesn't make any difference (still 11 provinces incl. capital).

@Buh the Ghost
Also, you might try setting both ita and ger as minors and see the case where germany SHOULD NOT but still did ( judged by common sence, by logic, number of vp's etc.) still does after being reduced to minor.

i don't get this part. Do you mean the case where Germany and Italy is minor and Germany still gets SCH? Both being minor doesn't change anything in my testing. thus both being major shouldn't change anything, too.

Also what if ger became a minor and buffed up ita got promoted to major?

I would have to lower the german IC below the italian IC to test this. Nothing i want to do atm.



@all
I put this test into a exel tabula. How can i upload this? (its microsoft exel 2007 format) it looks something like that (text converted):

Number in my first post/ capital controlled by/ Number of provinces controlled (non VP/VP/total VP controlled)/ SCH surrenders to
- GER ITA SCH -
1. SCH 0/1/1 0/0/0 23/3/7 GER
2. SCH 0/0/0 0/1/1 23/3/7 ITA
3. SCH 1/0/0 0/1/1 22/3/7 GER
4. SCH 0/1/1 1/0/0 21/3/7 GER
5. SCH 1/0/0 0/2/2 22/2/6 GER
6. ITA 1/0/0 22/4/8 0/0/0 ITA
7. SCH 1/0/0 21/4/8 1/0/0 ITA
8. SCH 2/0/0 20/4/8 1/0/0 ITA
8. SCH 3/0/0 19/4/8 1/0/0 ITA
8. SCH 4/0/0 18/4/8 1/0/0 ITA
8. SCH 5/0/0 17/4/8 1/0/0 ITA
8. SCH 6/0/0 16/4/8 1/0/0 ITA
8. SCH 7/0/0 15/4/8 1/0/0 ITA
8. SCH 8/0/0 14/4/8 1/0/0 ITA
8. SCH 9/0/0 13/4/8 1/0/0 ITA
8. SCH 10/0/0 12/4/8 1/0/0 ITA
8. SCH 11/0/0 11/4/8 1/0/0 ITA
8. SCH 12/0/0 10/4/8 1/0/0 ITA
8. SCH 13/0/0 9/4/8 1/0/0 ITA
8. SCH 14/0/0 8/4/8 1/0/0 ITA
8. SCH 15/0/0 7/4/8 1/0/0 ITA
8. SCH 16/0/0 6/4/8 1/0/0 GER
9. SCH 15/0/0 7/4/7 1/0/0 ITA
9. SCH 15/0/0 7/4/6 1/0/0 ITA
9. SCH 15/0/0 7/4/5 1/0/0 ITA
9. SCH 15/0/0 7/4/4 1/0/0 ITA
9. SCH 15/0/0 8/3/3 1/0/0 ITA
9. SCH 15/0/0 9/2/2 1/0/0 ITA
9. SCH 15/0/0 10/1/1 1/0/0 ITA
10. SCH 14/1/1 11/0/0 1/0/0 ITA
11. GER 14/1/1 11/0/0 1/0/0 GER
12. GER 14/1/1 12/0/0 0/0/0 GER
13. GER 13/1/1 13/0/0 0/0/0 GER
13. GER 12/1/1 14/0/0 0/0/0 GER
13. GER 11/1/1 15/0/0 0/0/0 GER
13. GER 10/1/1 16/0/0 0/0/0 GER
14. GER 9/1/1 17/0/0 0/0/0 ITA
15. GER 11/0/0 15/1/0 0/0/0 GER

 

[unmerged(184977)]

i don't get this part. Do you mean the case where Germany and Italy is minor and Germany still gets SCH? Both being minor doesn't change anything in my testing. thus both being major shouldn't change anything, too.

I was refering to your post:

EDIT: i changed the IC for majors to 3000 and loaded up one save game where germany should get SCH. Now being a minor by definition, they still got SCH.

You said that you made both ita and ger minor and loaded the save where ger SHOULD (as in previous tests) get sch (and they still did)
I was wondering about the case where you set it up so ger DID NOT get sch and ita got it instead. If ita become major and ger minor i wonder how far could you push it (province, vp, capital wise) till ger gets sch instead of ita. If we could observe any differences (if you would have to assign more provinces to ger for them to get sch as compared to your "vanilla" tests) we at least could conclude that being a major or minor does matter at all.
And I'm sorry if my posts seem to be confusing. English is not my first language so sometimes it is more difficult for me to express my thoughts

 

[shabu]

WTB ( willing to buy )

Great efforts guys.


Willing to buy surrender rules detail from Paradox....


-shabu

 

[Buh the Ghost]

I was refering to your post:



You said that you made both ita and ger minor and loaded the save where ger SHOULD (as in previous tests) get sch (and they still did)
I was wondering about the case where you set it up so ger DID NOT get sch and ita got it instead. If ita become major and ger minor i wonder how far could you push it (province, vp, capital wise) till ger gets sch instead of ita. If we could observe any differences (if you would have to assign more provinces to ger for them to get sch as compared to your "vanilla" tests) we at least could conclude that being a major or minor does matter at all.
And I'm sorry if my posts seem to be confusing. English is not my first language so sometimes it is more difficult for me to express my thoughts

ok i understand you now. Maybe i will try this on the weekend. But since it didn't made any difference if Germany is major or not, why should it make a difference if Italy is or not? Nevertheless, i will try it. The case that because of rounding some smaller factors lose their effect is most likely due to the low number of provinces of Switzerland.

 

[unmerged(184977)]

@Buh the Ghost

As I could read from what you said it took very little for ger to be the one that gets sch. My guess was that it might be because ger was major and ita minor. Perhaps because of their status as "superpowers" majors are coded to have easier time scorring the surrender event. It didn't work with removing major status from ger but perhaps reversing the situation would produce some results.
Or maybe countries are simply hardcoded to be more important (getting more spoils of war) than others :S

And just one more thing. You said that it didn't matter if ger is in axis or not but it did matter if ita is in axis or not. What about alliance outside factions then? (just if you come to conclusion you have too much spare time and feel like testing additional possibilities :rofl: )

 

[unmerged(191515)]

not shocked. my historical scripts are completely on acid so far. i just overran Denmark and they refused to surrender. the last five Danes are now huddled on Greenland over a fire and holding out until I can finally develop a navy to come get them.

this game has been a disappointment on so many levels, this is just one more.

 

[Tritio]

Thank you very much for your contributions and tests, Buh the Ghost.

Unfortunately, it still seems that we are unable to reverse-engineer the surrender mechanics and puzzle out its precise workings.

I have thusly asked for help from some of the more knowledgeable members of our community and the Dev team. I sent the following PM to the honorable King, blue emu, Shams, and Rensslaer in the hopes that one of them might know more about the issue, or would know of someone who does. I just hope my Sig does not count against my request!

Greetings good sir,

I hope I am not interrupting your work.

I would like to ask for some advice. You see, several forum members and I have been trying to figure out the game mechanics behind surrendering in HOI3. To be precise, we would like to know what are the factors and the equation which decides who a AI country surrenders to.

We have discussed and tested the matter somewhat in the What are the game mechanics behind surrendering? thread. Unfortunately, despite multiple tests done, we are still somewhat lost.

If you have some knowledge on the issue, I kindly request for you to comment in that thread. If you do not have any knowledge on the issue, I hope that you might be able to ask someone who does to help us.

Thank you very much,

Sincerely,

Tritio

 

[Leckan]

I just conquered Poland and Denmark, they however didn't surrender... Damn!

 

[unmerged(191515)]

I just conquered Poland and Denmark, they however didn't surrender... Damn!

I've now demolished about 7 countries, and only Poland surrendered. The rest of them are giving me the finger while floating off to the US in life rafts. Apparently their governments-in-exile travel well and light.

Better still, after sending the Dutch packing, they showed up 6 or 7 months later with an Army twice the size of the one I defeated the first time, slipped into a little gap in my flawed provincial fence, and forced me to completely disintegrate my command structure in order to send them back on their rafts!

I feel like I'm trying to jam entire divisions into every city intersection....just to be sure...

 

[womble]

I've now demolished about 7 countries, and only Poland surrendered. The rest of them are giving me the finger while floating off to the US in life rafts. Apparently their governments-in-exile travel well and light.

Government in Exile is the result in the majority of cases of beating nations that are in Factions. Poland wasn't in a Faction. This is part of the game design and to be expected. It can lead to some oddnesses, such as Vichy France and France both having Governments in Exile in the same refuge capital. Somehow, I don't think the British Government would have extended the hand of refugee status to Petain and his cronies if Italy, say had decided to grab Vichy France...

Better still, after sending the Dutch packing, they showed up 6 or 7 months later with an Army twice the size of the one I defeated the first time, slipped into a little gap in my flawed provincial fence, and forced me to completely disintegrate my command structure in order to send them back on their rafts!

I feel like I'm trying to jam entire divisions into every city intersection....just to be sure...

The joys of unlimited naval range for the AI... though I suppose they could have based troops raised in the Dutch East Indies out of British ports...

 

[unmerged(101258)]

This is my world map playing as japan on my second run through after France surrendered. I was not in the Axis as I am trying to build Japan as a solo empire and Italy had not formally declared war on Allies yet. When germany attacked Poland for WW2 I attacked the Allies to gain as much of Indochina as I could. About 3 days before Paris fell I captured the last Indochina provence which gave me a greater landmass of Frances territory than Germany even tho I only had 2 VP's.

 

[bluepoo]

back to the op, is it possible that other factors come into play as to who the country surrenders to? such as ministers, spies, military strength (army, navy, air force), economic strength etc. the game has quite a lot of variables that form a formula and produces the results that you've experienced.

if anything, i've noticed in this game, that every action has a reaction and almost everything is inter-related.

 

[unmerged(7438)]

Johan said the the formula for surrender is as follows

For each country at war with France..
1) add up all french IC occupied by that country.
2) add +1 for each french province occupied by that country
3) add +1 that country is faction leader.
4) add +5 if french capital occupied by that country.

then the the country with highest value is who france surrenders to.

His original post can be found here.

 

[ajm317]

Well I'm glad that's settled.

 

[Rensslaer]

I apologise for not getting over here sooner. Tritio tried to pull me into this discussion, but I've been tremendously busy and wasn't able to pay attention until now.

Unfortunately, it appears to me like you've put alot of effort into finding the answer in more detail than I know, and so I'm not sure I have anything to add.

Johan would be the one to ask for an actual formula, but I don't know that he will want to provide that much detail.

For what it's worth, very few countries did surrender outright in the historical war. You did have several governments in exile hanging out in London.

Rensslaer