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Xamand

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Having read this thread a few days ago, I thought I now had the "From" mechanism worked out, however I am no longer so sure.

Just been running a test game ahead for my Hungarian AAR

Basically, the Axis were at war with the Allies (but not the Netherlands or Belgium so Germany couldn't do anything). The Axis included Italy, Japan and Nat Spain as well as germany

Hungary, played by myself, was also at war with the Allies and held Switzerland and Turkey pre war.

The first province to fall to any nation was Montbéliard on the 14th May 1939, which fell to Hungary.

The VPs which fell were, in order:
Lyon (2pts - Hun - 20/5/39)
Marseille (5pts - Ita - 7/6/39)
Casablanca (2pts - Spa - 11/6/39)
Libreville (2pts - Spa - 20/6/39)
Saigon (10pts - Jap - 21/7/39)
Dijon (4pts - Hun - 1/9/39)
Toulouse (4pts - Ita - 6/9/39)
Dimashq (5pts - Hun - 2/12/39)
Bordeaux (4pts - Ita - 7/12/39)
Tours (3pts - Ita - 19/1/40)
Paris (25pts - Hun - 27/3/40)

Meaning Hungary got the first VP and got 36 VPs total. They were also the nation which pushed France over the edge as well as got the cpaital.
Axis got 30 VPs total.

Rather than surrender to Hungary, the Vichy event fired (so the "From" field went to either Germany, Italy or Nat Spain)

I have absolutely no idea why :(


Edit: There are in fact two possibilities in my game as to why they surrendered to the Axis. The Axis took the higher number of provinces and took the higher number of VP provinces (though not the higher number of VP points)
However, this would this explain the surrender to Japan (and Italy) in the first example?
 
Last edited:

Xamand

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Ok, I've run a few tests using invasions by myself and Greece on both Bulgaria and Albania.
Test 1:
I took the first VP in Bulgaria (Varna) and the majority of provinces and then let Greece take the remaining 2 VPs including the capital Sofiya. Bulgaria surrendered to me.

Test 2:
I took 5 provinces from Albania but no VPs and then allowed Greece to take the remaining two provinces including the capital and only VP Tirane. Albania surrendered to Greece.

Test 3:
I allowed Greece to capture the first Bulgarian province and then two of the 3 VPs including the capital Sofiya. I then captured the majority of the Bulgarian provinces including the remaining VP Varna. Bulgaria surrendered to me.

So, from these tests (and they are not exhaustive) it appears that a nation surrenders to the nation that took the most provinces as long as that nation has taken at least one VP.

However, I still don't know what happens when alliances are involved. Does it check for the sum of an alliance's conquests or does it simply check individual country's totals? From the original example in this thread, I suspect it is the sum of an alliance, but I don't know whether either Japan or Itqly in that example had managed to individually beat Germany's total.
 

Jazumir

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On behalf of the entire community i think i can dare to allow myself to and honor myself with, expressing gratitude for conducting these tests and posting the results. Thanks!
 

jju_57

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When the national unity is greater then the remaining VP's of a country that country has a chance to surrender. This happened in this case. Germany would get the Vichy event but that did not fire. Since Japan captured the first VP from France and Italy was called to arms by Japan, Japan would get the victory based on HOI3 code.

This was just a fluke and never anticipated by the developers. It also would be very difficult to test for.

Having read this thread a few days ago, I thought I now had the "From" mechanism worked out, however I am no longer so sure.

Just been running a test game ahead for my Hungarian AAR

Basically, the Axis were at war with the Allies (but not the Netherlands or Belgium so Germany couldn't do anything). The Axis included Italy, Japan and Nat Spain as well as germany

Hungary, played by myself, was also at war with the Allies and held Switzerland and Turkey pre war.

The first province to fall to any nation was Montbéliard on the 14th May 1939, which fell to Hungary.

The VPs which fell were, in order:
Lyon (2pts - Hun - 20/5/39)
Marseille (5pts - Ita - 7/6/39)
Casablanca (2pts - Spa - 11/6/39)
Libreville (2pts - Spa - 20/6/39)
Saigon (10pts - Jap - 21/7/39)
Dijon (4pts - Hun - 1/9/39)
Toulouse (4pts - Ita - 6/9/39)
Dimashq (5pts - Hun - 2/12/39)
Bordeaux (4pts - Ita - 7/12/39)
Tours (3pts - Ita - 19/1/40)
Paris (25pts - Hun - 27/3/40)

Meaning Hungary got the first VP and got 36 VPs total. They were also the nation which pushed France over the edge as well as got the cpaital.
Axis got 30 VPs total.

Rather than surrender to Hungary, the Vichy event fired (so the "From" field went to either Germany, Italy or Nat Spain)

I have absolutely no idea why :(


Edit: There are in fact two possibilities in my game as to why they surrendered to the Axis. The Axis took the higher number of provinces and took the higher number of VP provinces (though not the higher number of VP points)
However, this would this explain the surrender to Japan (and Italy) in the first example?

The Vichy event has a percent chance to fire each day after the fall of Paris. Surrender events have a chance to fire anytime the national unity is lower then remaining VP's. The first event to fire wins. Vichy event fired by chance this time.

Also, if I recall correctly any nation that joins in a call to arms gives their VP's to the calling nation. So all the VP's that Italy captured in the OP gave credit to Japan.

I know first VP to fall plays a role in who gets the surrender but not sure to what extent and how its weighted over total VP's, total provinces, etc.
 
Last edited:

Tritio

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Hello everyone,
It was with some surprise that I saw my thread reappear on the front page again after a week of inactivity, thanks Xamand having contributed. I was pleasantly surprised that someone might take enough of an interest to experiment and then post the results, and hence I decided to take a re-look at the own example which I posted in the OP and answer remaining queries.

Lol. We have mother of all exploits here. :)

Taking first French VPs as Japan shouldn't be very hard with Germans stalling in Poland and Belgium too long. For Japan it's just about putting a few marines on boats and sailing three provinces from Guangxi. I will try it and see if I can get myself a Big Blue Blob as a puppy too.

Hi delra, indeed, that would be the mother of all exploits. However, I think that the probability of the game's surrender engine working in this altogether oversimplistic and exploitable manner is extremely small. I only put forth that theory because I had no other at the time, and I was making a wild guess and hoping that someone would have a better idea than me. And someone has.

That one is easy. Italy caused the action that pushed the percentage of lost VPs above the National Unity, which triggered the "surrender" check. Either they took a VP province (maybe in North Africa based on the screenshots), did a Strategic Bombardment Mission, used spies, or raided a convoy.

xtfoster,
I can verify in-game that neither Italy nor any other nation took a single French VP province in the whole of Africa or any of the other French colonies with the exception of me (Japan) having conquered French Indochina. Indeed, Italy only managed to occupy a measly 4 provinces in French North Africa with a single DIV, none of them VP provinces. The only French VPs occupied were those in the Nation of France itself and the two in French Indochina.

Regarding the question of Strategic warfare, I would like to draw your attention to the following screenshot taken when I loaded up France on the day it surrendered:
HoI3_791Edit.jpg


As you can see, out of the three Strategic warfare elements, only the Home front factor registered anything other than zero. There were no strategic bombing campaigns or sunk French convoys. The Home front factor was hardly an important factor. As you can see, it decreased National Unity by 0.22 per month. As the difference between the 'occupied provinces value' and the 'national unity value' in the Surrender bar is far larger than that amount, it could not have contributed to the 'tipping point' (I will elaborate in the next post). Moreover, I am unsure that the identity of an aggressor nation in the form of Strategic Warfare is recorded. I.e. Strategic warfare serves to reduce a country's NU score. A larger percentage of VPs as compared to NU must then be occupied in order to force a surrender. Let me elaborate using the US Air Powaar (sic, see the similarly named AAR in HOI2) analogy. Suppose the player as the USA creates a house rule for himself that he shall aid in the defeat of Germany without landing a single DIV on German soil. He then goes on to create the greatest Airforce in the world, with dozens of CAS, TAC, and STRAT bombers. Suppose, then, that with this airforce he manages to stop the fall of France to the Germans. He bombs the GER army into oblivion, sinks every GER convoy with his superior fleet (Strategic Warfare: Convoys), and carries out an awesome Strategic bombing campaign which reduces GER IC to zero (Strategic Warfare: Strategic bombing). In doing so, he paves the way for the French army to invade Germany and capture Berlin and force the surrender of Germany. Do the Germans surrender to France or to the USA (assuming that they have the option to choose)? My belief would be that they surrender to the French. Because while the US reduced German NU with Strategic warfare, it was French DIVs which occupied German VPs and Berlin. The same principle would apply to spies. The question of who dealt the most Strategic Warfare 'damage' to a country probably has no bearing on which opponent a country surrenders to. That identity is most probably determined by the identity of a country's occupier.

I verified this theory by loading up an earlier version of my Japanese game. In June, my Japan had already occupied French Indochina's 2 VPs: Hanoi (5VP) and Saigon (10VP) for a total of 15 VPs. Germany had not captured a single French province (much less VP) and neither had Italy. Therefore, the score was: JAP: 15, GER: 0, ITA: 0. I then loaded up as Germany. I used the Nukes cheat to get 10 nuclear bombs, and I proceeded to Nuke Paris multiple times in one day until the French NU dropped to 1%. At midnight, France surrendered to Japan, although Germany had done infinitely more Strategic damage than Japan. VPs trump SU in determining the victor.

I can't offer proof, but I would suggest that it's relatively frequent that Japan are the first power to take a VP off of the UK, and that in most cases the Brits will surrender to Germany whoever has done the most conquering (by some measure or other...). Maybe there's a multi-factor equation that produces a probability of surrendering to any given influence out of: first VP-taker; last VP taker; most VP holder; most province holder; most home province/VP holder...

Indeed, this is a sensible theory. Xamand has experimented and tried to find out the equation (I will address his post later).

I could be signing in the streets with this but...

The surrender could this be beause the fench AI thinks it can continue to fight Germany, but not Italy and so it surrenders to Italy's Master; japan?

Italy has an open route into southern France, I'm not sure why the division that capture Lyon is not still there, but the fact is there is a huge open whole in France's southern front, but the northern one I expect still few holes?

I also suspect that Italy has made gains in North Africa too...

Either way, nice that you called in Italy!! Maybe the French though you'd be a preferable master than the germans?

A note though, if you had annexed what would happen to the provenices already conquered by ITaly and Germany, would the cede to them or be returned to the falg of the rising sun?

To answer your last question, I did try clicking Annex (couldn't resist), and the result was that all French holdings were ceded to me (Japan) without exception. France in Europe, French holdings in Africa, Madagascar, Indochina, everything. The map of Europe was suddenly and forcefully made to accept the intrusion of the great yellow blob. Which, of course, I couldn't stand. Your theory about the French AI somehow feeling more 'threatened' by Italy or feeling that they 'preferred' to be ruled by me is of course quite nonsensical. The AI does not evaluate things as a human would. The designers have attempted to include factors into the AI's thought process which would appear to do so, but they are well known and documented. The 'threatened' feeling would of course be Threat, and in this case, GER had the highest level of Threat towards FRA, and not ITA or JAP. The preferred feeling is of course Susceptibility towards Faction, which is hard/soft-coded into each country. FRA was of course susceptible towards the Allies, but that has nothing to do with which country it decides to surrender to.

I don't remember the distribution of the French VP, but it looks like the Indochinese VPs, combined with the token southern French VP captured by the Italians, might be more of the total than those captured by the Germans in the north.

I have addressed this in my earlier post. The GER and captured many more VPs that me (JAP). Paris alone is worth 25 VPs. Saigon is worth 10 VPs, and Hanoi 5.
 

Tritio

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Addressing Xamand's contributions

Thank you for your contributions, Xamand!

I would like to address your points as best I may from my example. After your experiments and from my own calculations, I would postulate that your theory is correct. A nation surrenders to the nation that took the most provinces as long as that nation has taken at least one VP. Your tests 1 and 3 as well as my example removes the possibility that a nation surrenders based on who captures the capital. Your test 2 seems to indicate that you must take at least 1 VP to be considered for the surrender event.

With reference to your first post about your Hungarian conquest of France, I would like to add that the number of VP provinces probably does not matter (except being used to calculate the total number of provinces conquered) as opposed to the number of VP points. My own Japan game bears this theory out. The Germans had conquered a total of 7 VP-bearing provinces whereas I had only conquered 2 VP-bearing provinces, and Italy had conquered 1. Yet France surrendered to me.

I will support the theory with a re-look at my own game. I reloaded my game as Japan on the surrender date and found that:
French VPs captured by Germany:
- Reims (4)
- Lille (2)
- Dunkerque (2)
- Troyes (3)
- Paris (25)
- Le Havre (1)
- Caen (5)
- TOTAL: 42 VP points from 7 VP provinces

French VPs captured by Japan:
- Hanoi (5)
- Saigon (10)
- TOTAL: 15 VP points from 2 VP provinces

French VPs captured by Italy:
- Lyon (2)

Therefore, Germany has the clear lead in terms of both number of VP points captured and number of VP provinces captured compared to Japan/Italy or even Japan + Italy.

French Provinces captured by Germany:
- 44 in Northern France

French Provinces captured by Japan:
- 100 in Indochina

French Provinces captured by Italy:
- 14 in SE France
- 4 in North Africa
- TOTAL: 18

Therefore, Japan now has the clear lead in terms of number of provinces captured compared to Germany. That lead is further increased if you add Italy into the equation. The proposed theory would explain why France chose to surrender to Japan. When it's surrender bar reached 100% (percentage of VPs occupied > National Unity score), it checked and found that Japan had conquered more of its provinces and at least 1 VP, and therefore it surrendered to me.

This could conceivably be explained in practical terms by the programming language used. If you are familiar with HOI3's programming language, you would not find the following line too hard to imagine (for example):

Surrender logic
Surrender_to = TAG { country which captured most provinces }

As a caveat, a programmer could have foreseen that a VP province would need to be captured before a country would consider surrendering to an aggressor and added the following line (for example):

Surrender_to = TAG {{ country which captured most provinces }
AND {country has captured a VP = YES }}

I will now delve into the question of whether the identity of the country that captures the 'tipping point' VP (which, as the name suggests, is the last province to tip the Surrender bar into/over 100%) matters. In my example, if I could prove that Germany was the one that captured the tipping point VP (yet France surrendered to someone who did NOT capture the tipping point VP i.e. Japan) then this would mean that the tipping point VP does not matter. This would matter, because imagine if a country only surrendered to an opponent which captured the tipping point VP, then the game would be open to exploitative 'kill stealers'.

I will attempt to prove that Germany did capture the tipping point VP by calculating the impact of such a capture on the Surrender bar.

HoI3_795.jpg


As you can see from the picture, at the time of surrender, 51.8% of France's VPs were occupied, and their national unity value had fallen to 47.9%. Now, France has a total of 114 VPs in total. This can be verified by loading up France on 01/01/1936 and looking at the Statistics tab. A total of 59 VPs were occupied at the time of surrender, and 55 VPs remained unoccupied. Divide 59 by 114 and multiply by 100 and you will get 51.75, which rounds up to 51.8%. So far, so good. Now, how could we determine that the Germans captured the tipping point VP and not the Italians, given that the only other savegame that I possess was too far away to provide evidence? The Japanese certainly did not capture the tipping point VP. I had captured the 2 Indochina VPs about a month before France surrendered. Therefore, either the Italians or the Germans must have stole the cheese. Fortunately, we may observe that 3 German captured VPs were located on the front line and 1 Italian captured VP was located on the front line. Coincidentally, the VP captured by the Italians was Lyon (2VPs), and the VPs captured by the Germans were Troyes (3VPs), Reims (4VPs), and Caen (5VPs)! The number of VPs in each provinces was different. Let us use that to calculate the tipping point VP.

Now the math comes in:
We know that France's VP occupied percentage must have been below 47.9% the day before the surrender. Otherwise, France would have surrendered a day earlier. During the day of surrender, France's VP occupied percentage must have risen from below 47.9% to 51.8%, hence leading to the figures as seen in the screenshot above.

Difference in VP percentages:
51.8% - 47.9% = 3.9%

Lets express those percentages in VP points:
3.9/100 * 114 = 4.446
Therefore, during the day of surrender, a minimum of 4.446 French VP points may have been captured. Why minimum? Because if you had captured less than that number, France's VP occupied percentage could not have rised from 47.9% to 51.8%.

For example, assume I had captured 4 VPs:
4 VPs in percentage terms:
4/114 * 100 = 3.5088%

Assuming that France's occupied VP percentage was 47.7% just a fraction below 47.8% (by no means necessary)
47.7% + 3.5088% = 51.2088%, which falls short of the screenshotted figure of 51.8%

Therefore, the tipping point VP cannot have been a VP of less than 5 points, which neatly rules out all VPs besides Caen. Hence, the award goes to the Germans for capturing Caen as the VP to tip France's surrender bar over 100% and cause their surrender. My earlier guess that Reims was the tipping point VP has been proven to be wrong. Since Germany captured the tipping point VP but France surrendered to Japan, the tipping point VP cannot be the deciding factor. Therefore, kill stealing is quite out of the question.
 

ajm317

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Thank you for your contributions, Xamand!

I would like to address your points as best I may from my example. After your experiments and from my own calculations, I would postulate that your theory is correct. A nation surrenders to the nation that took the most provinces as long as that nation has taken at least one VP. Your tests 1 and 3 as well as my example removes the possibility that a nation surrenders based on who captures the capital. Your test 2 seems to indicate that you must take at least 1 VP to be considered for the surrender event.

With reference to your first post about your Hungarian conquest of France, I would like to add that the number of VP provinces probably does not matter (except being used to calculate the total number of provinces conquered) as opposed to the number of VP points. My own Japan game bears this theory out. The Germans had conquered a total of 7 VP-bearing provinces whereas I had only conquered 2 VP-bearing provinces, and Italy had conquered 1. Yet France surrendered to me.

I will support the theory with a re-look at my own game. I reloaded my game as Japan on the surrender date and found that:
French VPs captured by Germany:
- Reims (4)
- Lille (2)
- Dunkerque (2)
- Troyes (3)
- Paris (25)
- Le Havre (1)
- Caen (5)
- TOTAL: 42 VP points from 7 VP provinces

French VPs captured by Japan:
- Hanoi (5)
- Saigon (10)
- TOTAL: 15 VP points from 2 VP provinces

French VPs captured by Italy:
- Lyon (2)

Therefore, Germany has the clear lead in terms of both number of VP points captured and number of VP provinces captured compared to Japan/Italy or even Japan + Italy.

French Provinces captured by Germany:
- 44 in Northern France

French Provinces captured by Japan:
- 100 in Indochina

French Provinces captured by Italy:
- 14 in SE France
- 4 in North Africa
- TOTAL: 18

Therefore, Japan now has the clear lead in terms of number of provinces captured compared to Germany. That lead is further increased if you add Italy into the equation. The proposed theory would explain why France chose to surrender to Japan. When it's surrender bar reached 100% (percentage of VPs occupied > National Unity score), it checked and found that Japan had conquered more of its provinces and at least 1 VP, and therefore it surrendered to me.

This could conceivably be explained in practical terms by the programming language used. If you are familiar with HOI3's programming language, you would not find the following line too hard to imagine (for example):

Surrender logic
Surrender_to = TAG { country which captured most provinces }

As a caveat, a programmer could have foreseen that a VP province would need to be captured before a country would consider surrendering to an aggressor and added the following line (for example):

Surrender_to = TAG {{ country which captured most provinces }
AND {country has captured a VP = YES }}

Unfortunately this explanation is not correct, unless I am very bad at counting:

http://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/showthread.php?t=448436&page=2

You can see this is an earlier thread I started on this very subject. In my case the UK surrenders to Italy initially, and Italy does indeed occupy more UK provinces than Germany.

However after editing the save to give Germany a bunch of those the UK then surrenders to Germany. The key point here is although editing the save gave Germany more provinces and Italy less, ITALY STILL HAD MORE. Specifically Germany had 98 and Italy had 105. Italy also still possessed a victory point, as I had edited Italian held Asyut to have a VP value of 30.

It seems clear to me that the surrender algorithm is a function with more than one input and that number of occupied provinces is a critical component, but it is not the ONLY component.
 

SFJackBauer

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Unfortunately this explanation is not correct, unless I am very bad at counting:

http://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/showthread.php?t=448436&page=2

You can see this is an earlier thread I started on this very subject. In my case the UK surrenders to Italy initially, and Italy does indeed occupy more UK provinces than Germany.

However after editing the save to give Germany a bunch of those the UK then surrenders to Germany. The key point here is although editing the save gave Germany more provinces and Italy less, ITALY STILL HAD MORE. Specifically Germany had 98 and Italy had 105. Italy also still possessed a victory point, as I had edited Italian held Asyut to have a VP value of 30.

It seems clear to me that the surrender algorithm is a function with more than one input and that number of occupied provinces is a critical component, but it is not the ONLY component.


Then I'm baffled. The Hoi3 developers managed to develop a formulae more complex than the Theory of Relativity and Quantum Mechanics...:wacko:
 

jju_57

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Then I'm baffled. The Hoi3 developers managed to develop a formulae more complex than the Theory of Relativity and Quantum Mechanics...:wacko:

Maybe it is quantum mechanics. After all according to that theory anything can happen and you can be in more then one place at the same time. Matter mysteriously comes into and out of existence.

Now M-Theory would be the true goal for the surrender events! :rofl:
 

unmerged(186494)

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Thank you for your contributions, Xamand!

I would like to address your points as best I may from my example. After your experiments and from my own calculations, I would postulate that your theory is correct. A nation surrenders to the nation that took the most provinces as long as that nation has taken at least one VP. Your tests 1 and 3 as well as my example removes the possibility that a nation surrenders based on who captures the capital. Your test 2 seems to indicate that you must take at least 1 VP to be considered for the surrender event.

With reference to your first post about your Hungarian conquest of France, I would like to add that the number of VP provinces probably does not matter (except being used to calculate the total number of provinces conquered) as opposed to the number of VP points. My own Japan game bears this theory out. The Germans had conquered a total of 7 VP-bearing provinces whereas I had only conquered 2 VP-bearing provinces, and Italy had conquered 1. Yet France surrendered to me.

I will support the theory with a re-look at my own game. I reloaded my game as Japan on the surrender date and found that:
French VPs captured by Germany:
- Reims (4)
- Lille (2)
- Dunkerque (2)
- Troyes (3)
- Paris (25)
- Le Havre (1)
- Caen (5)
- TOTAL: 42 VP points from 7 VP provinces

French VPs captured by Japan:
- Hanoi (5)
- Saigon (10)
- TOTAL: 15 VP points from 2 VP provinces

French VPs captured by Italy:
- Lyon (2)

Therefore, Germany has the clear lead in terms of both number of VP points captured and number of VP provinces captured compared to Japan/Italy or even Japan + Italy.

French Provinces captured by Germany:
- 44 in Northern France

French Provinces captured by Japan:
- 100 in Indochina

French Provinces captured by Italy:
- 14 in SE France
- 4 in North Africa
- TOTAL: 18

Therefore, Japan now has the clear lead in terms of number of provinces captured compared to Germany. That lead is further increased if you add Italy into the equation. The proposed theory would explain why France chose to surrender to Japan. When it's surrender bar reached 100% (percentage of VPs occupied > National Unity score), it checked and found that Japan had conquered more of its provinces and at least 1 VP, and therefore it surrendered to me.

This could conceivably be explained in practical terms by the programming language used. If you are familiar with HOI3's programming language, you would not find the following line too hard to imagine (for example):

Surrender logic
Surrender_to = TAG { country which captured most provinces }

As a caveat, a programmer could have foreseen that a VP province would need to be captured before a country would consider surrendering to an aggressor and added the following line (for example):

Surrender_to = TAG {{ country which captured most provinces }
AND {country has captured a VP = YES }}

I will now delve into the question of whether the identity of the country that captures the 'tipping point' VP (which, as the name suggests, is the last province to tip the Surrender bar into/over 100%) matters. In my example, if I could prove that Germany was the one that captured the tipping point VP (yet France surrendered to someone who did NOT capture the tipping point VP i.e. Japan) then this would mean that the tipping point VP does not matter. This would matter, because imagine if a country only surrendered to an opponent which captured the tipping point VP, then the game would be open to exploitative 'kill stealers'.

I will attempt to prove that Germany did capture the tipping point VP by calculating the impact of such a capture on the Surrender bar.

HoI3_795.jpg


As you can see from the picture, at the time of surrender, 51.8% of France's VPs were occupied, and their national unity value had fallen to 47.9%. Now, France has a total of 114 VPs in total. This can be verified by loading up France on 01/01/1936 and looking at the Statistics tab. A total of 59 VPs were occupied at the time of surrender, and 55 VPs remained unoccupied. Divide 59 by 114 and multiply by 100 and you will get 51.75, which rounds up to 51.8%. So far, so good. Now, how could we determine that the Germans captured the tipping point VP and not the Italians, given that the only other savegame that I possess was too far away to provide evidence? The Japanese certainly did not capture the tipping point VP. I had captured the 2 Indochina VPs about a month before France surrendered. Therefore, either the Italians or the Germans must have stole the cheese. Fortunately, we may observe that 3 German captured VPs were located on the front line and 1 Italian captured VP was located on the front line. Coincidentally, the VP captured by the Italians was Lyon (2VPs), and the VPs captured by the Germans were Troyes (3VPs), Reims (4VPs), and Caen (5VPs)! The number of VPs in each provinces was different. Let us use that to calculate the tipping point VP.

Now the math comes in:
We know that France's VP occupied percentage must have been below 47.9% the day before the surrender. Otherwise, France would have surrendered a day earlier. During the day of surrender, France's VP occupied percentage must have risen from below 47.9% to 51.8%, hence leading to the figures as seen in the screenshot above.

Difference in VP percentages:
51.8% - 47.9% = 3.9%

Lets express those percentages in VP points:
3.9/100 * 114 = 4.446
Therefore, during the day of surrender, a minimum of 4.446 French VP points may have been captured. Why minimum? Because if you had captured less than that number, France's VP occupied percentage could not have rised from 47.9% to 51.8%.

For example, assume I had captured 4 VPs:
4 VPs in percentage terms:
4/114 * 100 = 3.5088%

Assuming that France's occupied VP percentage was 47.7% just a fraction below 47.8% (by no means necessary)
47.7% + 3.5088% = 51.2088%, which falls short of the screenshotted figure of 51.8%

Therefore, the tipping point VP cannot have been a VP of less than 5 points, which neatly rules out all VPs besides Caen. Hence, the award goes to the Germans for capturing Caen as the VP to tip France's surrender bar over 100% and cause their surrender. My earlier guess that Reims was the tipping point VP has been proven to be wrong. Since Germany captured the tipping point VP but France surrendered to Japan, the tipping point VP cannot be the deciding factor. Therefore, kill stealing is quite out of the question.
The sum of the tipping province is 5, which could be any combination to reach that. Perhaps it was not Caen but a combination of two of the other provinces.
 

ajm317

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The sum of the tipping province is 5, which could be any combination to reach that. Perhaps it was not Caen but a combination of two of the other provinces.

I can confirm that the question of "who delivers the knockout blow" is probably not relevant. In my example Germany clearly delivered the knockout blow by taking London, yet the UK surrendered to Italy.
 

Xamand

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When the national unity is greater then the remaining VP's of a country that country has a chance to surrender. This happened in this case. Germany would get the Vichy event but that did not fire. Since Japan captured the first VP from France and Italy was called to arms by Japan, Japan would get the victory based on HOI3 code.

This was just a fluke and never anticipated by the developers. It also would be very difficult to test for.

The Vichy event has a percent chance to fire each day after the fall of Paris. Surrender events have a chance to fire anytime the national unity is lower then remaining VP's. The first event to fire wins. Vichy event fired by chance this time.

Also, if I recall correctly any nation that joins in a call to arms gives their VP's to the calling nation. So all the VP's that Italy captured in the OP gave credit to Japan.

I know first VP to fall plays a role in who gets the surrender but not sure to what extent and how its weighted over total VP's, total provinces, etc.

I think you maybe thinking of HOI2, the HOI3 surrender events, in case the Vichy event, has no MTTH (mean time to happen).
Therefore, once the conditions are met, in the case of Vichy, France has to be surrendering to either Germany, Italy or Nat Spain and has to be at war with Germany, the Vichy event will always fire.
If France is surrendering and one of the above conditions are not met, the standard surrender events will come into play that all other nations get.

The big question that has been unanswered is how the game determines who France (or whoever - in ajm317's example, the UK) surrenders to.

In which case, see below, the first VP taken appears to have no effect, neither does the last VP taken.

Unfortunately this explanation is not correct, unless I am very bad at counting:

http://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/showthread.php?t=448436&page=2

You can see this is an earlier thread I started on this very subject. In my case the UK surrenders to Italy initially, and Italy does indeed occupy more UK provinces than Germany.

However after editing the save to give Germany a bunch of those the UK then surrenders to Germany. The key point here is although editing the save gave Germany more provinces and Italy less, ITALY STILL HAD MORE. Specifically Germany had 98 and Italy had 105. Italy also still possessed a victory point, as I had edited Italian held Asyut to have a VP value of 30.

It seems clear to me that the surrender algorithm is a function with more than one input and that number of occupied provinces is a critical component, but it is not the ONLY component.

I've now done some further testing by doing a whole load of edits to a save game 1hr prior to the French surrender.

I have come to the same conclusion but have also been able to narrow it down somewhat.

Following my experiment with Bulgaria I knew that the number of provinces taken by each nation played a big part so I transferred a load from Italy to Hungary in the save game.
I finally managed to get France to surrender to Hungary (and hence avoid the Vichy event) when I had the following allocation:
Hun 101
Ita 109
Spa 85 (they had taken a shed load of African provinces)
Jap 1 (Saigon only)

To check that this was indeed the swivel point, I transferred a province back to Italy from Hungary and indeed, the Vichy event fired.

After transferring the province back and retesting to make sure, I now knew that anything I did to make Italy's surrender score better would fire Vichy as opposed to Hungary getting the surrender and that if it had no effect, Hungary would get the surrender. I also new that it wasn't just the number of provinces taken that effected who got the surrender as ajm317 had also discovered.

First I reduced the number of victory points allotted to Paris from 25 to 8, meaning that Italy now had loads more total VP points.
Hungary still got the surrender, so this has no effect.

I then changed the date that Marseille switched hands so that Italy had now taken the first VP and not Hungary however Hungary still got the surrender so who takes the first VP has no effect.

I then switched the dates that Marseille and Paris fell as well as switched round their VP values meaning that Italy would have been the nation to finally push France over the edge. Hungary still got the surrender, so we now know that who takes the final VP has no effect.

Originally, both Italy and Hungary had taken 4 VP provinces each. I switched one of Italy's non-VP provinces with one of Hungarys VP provinces meaning that the total number of provinces taken was still the same but Italy now had 1 more province in total. Vichy fired, therefore, as well as the total number of provinces, the total number of vp provinces is also a contributing factor.

I reverted this change and then swapped one of Italy's VP provinces with the capital, Paris, taken by Hungary. Therefore total provinces taken was the same as originally and total VP provinces taken was still 4 each. Vichy fired meaning that who takes the capital is also a contributing factor. However, as Vichy fired when Italy had just 10 more provinces than Hungary when Hungary had the capital we know that by far the main factor is the total number of provinces.

As by now, my head was starting to hurt, I haven't been able to ascertain the exact way that the number of VP provinces and the capital affect the total count, but the capital either gives a 10 province bonus or a 10% bonus. How it works it out in the case of a draw I don't know.

So to sum up, the contributing factors are:
Total number of provinces
Capital
Total number of VP provinces

Factors which don't contribute:
First VP province taken.
Last VP province taken.


One last note, as the capital and the total number of VP provinces have an effect on the outcome, it throws into doubt the assumption I made from my Albania test that you have to at least take a VP province to be considered. It may be possible if you take enough provinces from a nation that you can claim the surrender even though you haven't managed to take a VP province. This will require further testing to see just how much effect the VP province count has and whether it and the capital get a fixed bonus in comparison with the province count or a percentile bonus.
 

ajm317

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I think you maybe thinking of HOI2, the HOI3 surrender events, in case the Vichy event, has no MTTH (mean time to happen).
Therefore, once the conditions are met, in the case of Vichy, France has to be surrendering to either Germany, Italy or Nat Spain and has to be at war with Germany, the Vichy event will always fire.
If France is surrendering and one of the above conditions are not met, the standard surrender events will come into play that all other nations get.

The big question that has been unanswered is how the game determines who France (or whoever - in ajm317's example, the UK) surrenders to.

In which case, see below, the first VP taken appears to have no effect, neither does the last VP taken.



I've now done some further testing by doing a whole load of edits to a save game 1hr prior to the French surrender.

I have come to the same conclusion but have also been able to narrow it down somewhat.

Following my experiment with Bulgaria I knew that the number of provinces taken by each nation played a big part so I transferred a load from Italy to Hungary in the save game.
I finally managed to get France to surrender to Hungary (and hence avoid the Vichy event) when I had the following allocation:
Hun 101
Ita 109
Spa 85 (they had taken a shed load of African provinces)
Jap 1 (Saigon only)

To check that this was indeed the swivel point, I transferred a province back to Italy from Hungary and indeed, the Vichy event fired.

After transferring the province back and retesting to make sure, I now knew that anything I did to make Italy's surrender score better would fire Vichy as opposed to Hungary getting the surrender and that if it had no effect, Hungary would get the surrender. I also new that it wasn't just the number of provinces taken that effected who got the surrender as ajm317 had also discovered.

First I reduced the number of victory points allotted to Paris from 25 to 8, meaning that Italy now had loads more total VP points.
Hungary still got the surrender, so this has no effect.

I then changed the date that Marseille switched hands so that Italy had now taken the first VP and not Hungary however Hungary still got the surrender so who takes the first VP has no effect.

I then switched the dates that Marseille and Paris fell as well as switched round their VP values meaning that Italy would have been the nation to finally push France over the edge. Hungary still got the surrender, so we now know that who takes the final VP has no effect.

Originally, both Italy and Hungary had taken 4 VP provinces each. I switched one of Italy's non-VP provinces with one of Hungarys VP provinces meaning that the total number of provinces taken was still the same but Italy now had 1 more province in total. Vichy fired, therefore, as well as the total number of provinces, the total number of vp provinces is also a contributing factor.

I reverted this change and then swapped one of Italy's VP provinces with the capital, Paris, taken by Hungary. Therefore total provinces taken was the same as originally and total VP provinces taken was still 4 each. Vichy fired meaning that who takes the capital is also a contributing factor. However, as Vichy fired when Italy had just 10 more provinces than Hungary when Hungary had the capital we know that by far the main factor is the total number of provinces.

As by now, my head was starting to hurt, I haven't been able to ascertain the exact way that the number of VP provinces and the capital affect the total count, but the capital either gives a 10 province bonus or a 10% bonus. How it works it out in the case of a draw I don't know.

So to sum up, the contributing factors are:
Total number of provinces
Capital
Total number of VP provinces

Factors which don't contribute:
First VP province taken.
Last VP province taken.


One last note, as the capital and the total number of VP provinces have an effect on the outcome, it throws into doubt the assumption I made from my Albania test that you have to at least take a VP province to be considered. It may be possible if you take enough provinces from a nation that you can claim the surrender even though you haven't managed to take a VP province. This will require further testing to see just how much effect the VP province count has and whether it and the capital get a fixed bonus in comparison with the province count or a percentile bonus.

Interesting stuff.

I'm surprised that number of VP provinces taken is a factor. I knew from my tests that total VP's was likely not (I had tested it by editing an Italian occupied province to be worth 300 VP) which one would think WOULD be a factor.

I'm also a little bit surprised the capital matters, since the game will move capitals around with little fan fair if/when they get captured.

It clearly seems that number of provinces is the most important number though, at least when considering large nations like France or the UK.
 

Xamand

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I believe only the original capital counts as the game does keep a track of where it was originally. The subsequent capitals are listed in the save game only as the "acting capital".
 

AlanC9

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Speaking of savegames, this is what stored for strategic warfare, from a USA game where I'm bombing Germany and fighting in Germany:

Code:
    strategic_warfare={
        alliance={
"1942.4.24.0"="-0.061"
"1942.4.24.0"="-0.081"
"1942.4.24.0"="-0.061"
"1942.4.24.0"="-0.061"
"1942.4.24.0"="-0.061"
"1942.4.24.0"="-0.061"
"1942.4.24.0"="-0.061"
"1942.4.24.0"="-0.061"
"1942.4.24.0"="-0.061"
"1942.4.24.0"="-0.061"
"1942.4.25.0"="-0.061"
"1942.4.25.0"="-0.082"
"1942.4.25.0"="-0.061"
"1942.4.25.0"="-0.061"
"1942.4.25.0"="-0.061"
"1942.4.25.0"="-0.061"
"1942.4.25.0"="-0.061"
"1942.4.25.0"="-0.061"
"1942.4.25.0"="-0.061"
"1942.4.25.0"="-0.061"
"1942.4.26.0"="-0.061"
"1942.4.26.0"="-0.081"
"1942.4.26.0"="-0.061"
"1942.4.26.0"="-0.061"
"1942.4.26.0"="-0.061"
"1942.4.26.0"="-0.061"
"1942.4.26.0"="-0.061"
"1942.4.26.0"="-0.061"
"1942.4.26.0"="-0.061"
"1942.4.26.0"="-0.061"
"1942.4.26.0"="-0.061"
"1942.4.26.0"="-0.081"
"1942.4.26.0"="-0.081"
"1942.4.27.0"="-0.060"
"1942.4.27.0"="-0.080"
"1942.4.27.0"="-0.060"
"1942.4.27.0"="-0.060"
"1942.4.27.0"="-0.060"
"1942.4.27.0"="-0.060"
"1942.4.27.0"="-0.060"
"1942.4.27.0"="-0.060"
"1942.4.27.0"="-0.080"
"1942.4.28.0"="-0.060"
"1942.4.28.0"="-0.080"
"1942.4.28.0"="-0.060"
"1942.4.28.0"="-0.060"
"1942.4.28.0"="-0.060"
"1942.4.28.0"="-0.060"
"1942.4.28.0"="-0.060"
"1942.4.28.0"="-0.060"
"1942.4.28.0"="-0.080"
"1942.4.29.0"="-0.061"
"1942.4.29.0"="-0.081"
"1942.4.29.0"="-0.061"
"1942.4.29.0"="-0.061"
"1942.4.29.0"="-0.061"
"1942.4.29.0"="-0.081"
"1942.4.30.0"="-0.062"
"1942.4.30.0"="-0.083"
"1942.4.30.0"="-0.062"
"1942.4.30.0"="-0.062"
"1942.4.30.0"="-0.062"
"1942.4.30.0"="-0.083"
"1942.5.1.0"="-0.062"
"1942.5.1.0"="-0.083"
"1942.5.1.0"="-0.062"
"1942.5.1.0"="-0.062"
"1942.5.1.0"="-0.083"
        }

        convoy={
        }

        ground_bombing={
"1942.4.24.4"="-0.102"
"1942.4.24.9"="-0.102"
"1942.4.24.15"="-0.102"
"1942.4.24.20"="-0.102"
"1942.4.25.2"="-0.102"
"1942.4.25.7"="-0.102"
"1942.4.25.13"="-0.102"
"1942.4.25.18"="-0.102"
"1942.4.26.0"="-0.102"
"1942.4.26.5"="-0.101"
"1942.4.26.11"="-0.101"
"1942.4.26.16"="-0.101"
"1942.4.26.22"="-0.101"
"1942.4.27.3"="-0.101"
"1942.4.27.9"="-0.101"
"1942.4.27.14"="-0.101"
"1942.4.27.20"="-0.101"
"1942.4.28.1"="-0.102"
"1942.4.28.7"="-0.102"
"1942.4.28.12"="-0.102"
"1942.4.28.18"="-0.102"
"1942.4.28.23"="-0.102"
"1942.4.29.5"="-0.104"
"1942.4.29.10"="-0.104"
"1942.4.29.16"="-0.104"
"1942.4.29.21"="-0.104"
"1942.4.30.3"="-0.104"
"1942.4.30.8"="-0.104"
"1942.4.30.14"="-0.104"
"1942.4.30.19"="-0.104"
        }

"Alliance" seems to refer to ground combats (???). Note that who did the bombing is not recorded.
 

unmerged(184977)

Sergeant
Dec 21, 2009
98
0
So to sum up, the contributing factors are:
Total number of provinces
Capital
Total number of VP provinces

Seeing how the game makers like all kinds of modifiers (attack efficiency, lider bonuses, tech difficulty etc.) I would not be surprised if vp counts as a province and also gives a certain bonus to a total number of provinces.
Capital bonus may be applied only to nation's original capital province.
Now, as to having at least one vp ... well, to put it in a "laboratory" situation where the payer is the only one at war with another country said player wold need to have at least one vp to even trigger surrender (or would it be possible to lower ones nu to 0% and see a country with 0% important cities occupied and 0% nu having 100% surrender progress and eventualy surrendering?). Then, if it's true for one participant would need to be true for everyone thus only these with vp's would be concidered.
Now, as to the role vp's play, perhaps as someone pointed they give % bonus to a total number of provinces, like 20% - so if you had 100 they'd be counted as 120. But if another participant had also 100 but controlled 2 vps he'd have it counted as 140. On the other hand if someone had 100 provinces with just one vp = 120 count against someone with 10 provinces ALL vps = 30 . . . . . Of course it's only guessing but perhaps would inspire someoene to do futher testing towards that idea :p


EDIT: I mean what might modify the base number of occupied provinces to be number of provinces considered important (having vps in them), no matter their exact vp value.
 
Last edited:

ajm317

Lt. General
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Aug 16, 2007
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Seeing how the game makers like all kinds of modifiers (attack efficiency, lider bonuses, tech difficulty etc.) I would not be surprised if vp counts as a province and also gives a certain bonus to a total number of provinces.
Capital bonus may be applied only to nation's original capital province.
Now, as to having at least one vp ... well, to put it in a "laboratory" situation where the payer is the only one at war with another country said player wold need to have at least one vp to even trigger surrender (or would it be possible to lower ones nu to 0% and see a country with 0% important cities occupied and 0% nu having 100% surrender progress and eventualy surrendering?). Then, if it's true for one participant would need to be true for everyone thus only these with vp's would be concidered.
Now, as to the role vp's play, perhaps as someone pointed they give % bonus to a total number of provinces, like 20% - so if you had 100 they'd be counted as 120. But if another participant had also 100 but controlled 2 vps he'd have it counted as 140. On the other hand if someone had 100 provinces with just one vp = 120 count against someone with 10 provinces ALL vps = 30 . . . . . Of course it's only guessing but perhaps would inspire someoene to do futher testing towards that idea :p

I really don't think number of VPs has any affect at all. Number of VP provinces yes, total VPs no.

Xamand's test where he edited the value of Paris confirms my own where I edited a save to give the Italians a British province worth 300 VPs to no effect (the Italians still didn't get the surrender). Since the difference in occupied provinces was small (Germany had 98, Italy 105) I would think that giving the Italians 300 British VPs would have had an effect if any effect was to be had, unless for some reason I don't understand it "didn't count".
 

unmerged(184977)

Sergeant
Dec 21, 2009
98
0
I really don't think number of VPs has any affect at all. Number of VP provinces yes, total VPs no.

Xamand's test where he edited the value of Paris confirms my own where I edited a save to give the Italians a British province worth 300 VPs to no effect (the Italians still didn't get the surrender). Since the difference in occupied provinces was small (Germany had 98, Italy 105) I would think that giving the Italians 300 British VPs would have had an effect if any effect was to be had, unless for some reason I don't understand it "didn't count".

What I ment was number of provinces with vps, no matter the exact vp value of them. Sorry for that.
 

jju_57

Banned
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Oct 13, 2003
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I think you maybe thinking of HOI2, the HOI3 surrender events, in case the Vichy event, has no MTTH (mean time to happen).
Therefore, once the conditions are met, in the case of Vichy, France has to be surrendering to either Germany, Italy or Nat Spain and has to be at war with Germany, the Vichy event will always fire.
If France is surrendering and one of the above conditions are not met, the standard surrender events will come into play that all other nations get.

I disagree that the Vichy event will fire immediately when the conditions are met. I have never seen it happen at the exaact same time in any of my games. Some games I've captured almost all of France and in others I got the event real quick.

So either there is some hidden secret to cause the event to fire or it comes down to a percent chance each day.