What are the conditions for Italian surrender?

[alanschu]

Didn't want to mimic the code, but change it, so that it makes more sense (imo)

(the developers seem to have ignored DeMorgan's Law the same way I did... If you inversed every condition, the event would work out fine...

How do you ignore DeMorgan's Law???? It just is.

I thought it was quite clear that you have to hold all of those provinces. Unless you are implying that the developers meant for it to be just one of the provinces.


I think people are reading too much into the comments beside each line. When I look at that, those comments just look like reminders to the programmers (which is typically what comments are for).

Maybe it is supposed to be any (because it does just say invasion, whereas there's a commented out section that says South Italy Captured).

EDIT: I think I see what you're saying, and reading it a bit more, it may be that they did ignore DeMorgen's Law. It says "Africa NOT in Italy hands," but the code checks to see if ONE of those provinces is not in Italy hands.

I see what you are saying now.

I think that this would make the invasion too easy personally, and would rather I have to capture all of those provinces instead. If you wish to alter it, change the Africa and the South Italy ORs and ANDs around.

 

[unmerged(55538)]

And also the event woulnd't make much sense gamewise if taking just one of the provinces would be enough to force Italy to surrender.

But the way it works now isn't really satisfying... All of Italy's south mainland provinces, NONE of the northern ones (meaning you have to know exactly which prov to take and which not), any main prov in N-Africa... that's ridiculous...

 

[unmerged(55538)]

Unless you are implying that the developers meant for it to be just one of the provinces.

now the fog thins out

btw: thx for your explanatory statements... helped me a lot... and now, the logic of DeMorgan's Law is quite obvious... silly me...

 

[alanschu]

And you know how to fix it too


Looking at it, it is pretty extreme in that you NEED specific provinces, but not too many. Though you could still get screwed if you were able to take a top province somehow.

 

[unmerged(46534)]

The event doesn’t work properly anyway and I would like it to be completely removed from the game, in particular Doomsday.

All that happens is that if you conquer half of Italy, including Rome the whole of Italy (the entire country) then switches sides thereby leaving any German units on the Italian frontlines stranded, encircled and out of supply.
It simply never worked like that in real life, the allies still had to conquer the rest of Italy.

I do understand why this event was introduced a it seemed daft that when Germany fell and mainland Italy fell what remains of Italy still fights on because they have one key province in Greece.

Fact is though Id rather the event was taken out completely or is heavily tweaked as its gamey to have a core part of the German army suddenly wiped out when Italy switches sides.

Change the event to something like when Rome and Berlin have fallen then Italy surrenders.

 

[ohms_law]

blah, blah, blah. I deal with damn logic circuits all dang day. I've never really payed attention to the italy event itself, and i'm at work now so i'm just reading the posted code. And no, I'm not "reading too much into the comments". I know what a comment is.

NOT = {
    OR = {
	control = { province = 515 data = ITA } #Roma NOT controlled by Italy
	control = { province = 523 data = ITA } #Taranto NOT controlled by Italy
	control = { province = 525 data = ITA } #Siracusa NOT controlled by Italy
	control = { province = 526 data = ITA } #Messina NOT controlled by Italy
	control = { province = 522 data = ITA } #Cosenza NOT controlled by Italy
	control = { province = 521 data = ITA } #Napoli NOT controlled by Italy
				}
			}

the way that it reads (to me) in english (presdo-code):
if not:
{
if italy controls provence 515
or if italy controls provence 523
or if italy controls provence 525
or if italy controls provence 526
or if italy controls provence 522
or if italy controls provence 521
}

i.e: if any one of the or'ed conditions are true, the whole is true and is inverted so that the whole condition is false. else, the condition is true.
logic statements 101.

 

[Hakkapeliitta]

blah, blah, blah. I deal with damn logic circuits all dang day. I've never really payed attention to the italy event itself, and i'm at work now so i'm just reading the posted code. And no, I'm not "reading too much into the comments". I know what a comment is.

NOT = {
    OR = {
	control = { province = 515 data = ITA } #Roma NOT controlled by Italy
	control = { province = 523 data = ITA } #Taranto NOT controlled by Italy
	control = { province = 525 data = ITA } #Siracusa NOT controlled by Italy
	control = { province = 526 data = ITA } #Messina NOT controlled by Italy
	control = { province = 522 data = ITA } #Cosenza NOT controlled by Italy
	control = { province = 521 data = ITA } #Napoli NOT controlled by Italy
				}
			}

the way that it reads (to me) in english (presdo-code):
if not:
{
if italy controls provence 515
or if italy controls provence 523
or if italy controls provence 525
or if italy controls provence 526
or if italy controls provence 522
or if italy controls provence 521
}

i.e: if any one of the or'ed conditions are true, the whole is true and is inverted so that the whole condition is false. else, the condition is true.
logic statements 101.

Yes. That is what we have been trying to say all along. If italy controlls any of the said provinces the whole condition is false and the event will not fire.

Thus Italy only surrenders if it doesn't control any of the given provinces.

 

[ohms_law]

yea... so, why are you trying to give me a hard time about "reading too much into the comments"?
:wacko:

 

[Hakkapeliitta]

yea... so, why are you trying to give me a hard time about "reading too much into the comments"?
:wacko:

I'm not giving you hard time about anything.

Earlier in the thread you said

the trigger condition in the first post means that if Italy has lost control any one of those provences, the event will be triggered.

which is false.

When I posted the correct condition you only replied to me: "read it again".

This is only about giving correct information: Italy only surrenders by this event if it doens't controll any of the said provinces.

[edit: besides, I have never written anything about "reading too much into the comments. Maybe you took Alanschu's general comment personally? ]

 

[ohms_law]

haha!
just reread the whole thread... wow. well, my only possible excuse is that I'm at work, and I had to run off after posting the first couple of posts.
*shrug*

oh well.

 

[unmerged(48091)]

aright, now i'm confused...
what?
lol

Hehe, me to. This is funny and confusing :rofl:

 

[AlanC9]

Looks like I was right, then. The comments say what they intended to do, but the code does something else.

@ alanschu: historically, Mussolini's government collapsed long before Rome fell to the Allies. Actually, the Italian army started to fall apart during the Sicily campaign. So the design intent was correct.

@sundance_kid: the event isn't supposed to destroy the German army in Italy. The northern provinces are supposed to be ceded to the RSI, which would presumably ally with Germany. This event doesn't leave much of Italy left at all. Everything is ceded to somebody except Taranto.

Let me go fix the trigger conditions and see what it actually does..

 

[unmerged(36208)]

Interestingly, I was just wondering about this last night. I have Italy down to one (1) province, which is the Sea of Sand (now their capitol) in Egypt, and I can't even capture it, because you can't move into it (apparently). Too funny (albeit annoying). Anytime I try to move a unit in there, all I get is the red x saying it's impossible to move there. Maybe a paratroop drop? Either way, the Italian surrender event definitely seems to be busticated.

-jon-

 

[AlanC9]

How did the Italians capture the Sand Sea, anyway? Did they drop paratroopers in who attrited to death?

I fired the surrender event. Heh. Sometimes I wonder what the betatesters were thinking.

Some provinces that should transfer to the Germans don't -- the Cyclades, Grenoble, Ljubjana. Not a big deal since the Germans can get them back pretty quick.

Transferring provinces to the UK is kind of weird, but in my save this didn't happen. Taranto was US-occupied so the Italian capital couldn't go there, so Rome couldn't be seceded. The others were under US or German occupation.

Ethiopia is restored even if the UK owns it, which is probably a good thing for the UK's TC.

North Africa's funny. When the Germans take over Vichy France Algeria and Tunisia are given to Italy. So when Italy switches sides these provinces stay Italian, rather than reverting to France. This is actually a problem with Vichy event 990; you can't return Algeria to Free France even if you want to, since after Vichy collapses the provinces are considered Italian. Should have used control rather than secedeprovince.

Here's the bad part. First, the Italian armed forces go over to the Allies intact. Ahistorical and game-killing. Second, the RSI forms, but does not become a German puppet. So it's at peace. And since it doesn't have any belligerence when the game starts, the Allies can't declare war on it. So the Germans just head for home with a completely secure Southern front. Gack.

Time to rewrite this sucker.

 

[unmerged(55538)]

How did the Italians capture the Sand Sea, anyway? Did they drop paratroopers in who attrited to death?

That depends on who's controling the surrounding provs (don't know which one right now, or if you have to control every one...)

Unless it's a capital province, of course. Then it won't change hands... just drop some paratroopers and SR them afterwards...

Time to rewrite this sucker.

Again a nice example of what a sloppy piece of work the scripts are...

 

[Kami888]

Personally i find the way this game handles
NOT = {
OR = {
}
}
conditions a bit too confusing, and to my logic it just looks wrong.
So each time when i want to check that a number of provinces are all not held, I write:
NOT = {
control = { province = 515 data = ITA }
control = { province = 523 data = ITA }
control = { province = 525 data = ITA }
control = { province = 526 data = ITA }
control = { province = 522 data = ITA }
control = { province = 521 data = ITA }
}
And I don't see any reason of putting an OR = {} condition there since whether you do this or not the game will interpret it as not controling all of the provinces.

But in case with Italy i think what the developers originally intended to have was for Italy to surrender if it loses any one of the southern provinces (that would make it more historically correct). In such cases I write:
OR = {
NOT = { control = { province = 515 data = ITA } }
NOT = { control = { province = 523 data = ITA } }
NOT = { control = { province = 525 data = ITA } }
NOT = { control = { province = 526 data = ITA } }
NOT = { control = { province = 522 data = ITA } }
NOT = { control = { province = 521 data = ITA } }
}

So plain and simple avoid NOT = { OR = { } } conditions or risk confusing everyone.

 

[unmerged(55538)]

I'm having the strong impression, that the devs got confused, too...

 

[Afalsejedi]

I believe the default version of the Italian surrender is bugged.

The SMEP mod corrects many aspects of this. You only have to conquer a little bit of Southern Italy before they get the event to either surrender or continuing fighting. If they surrender, Italy joins the Allies, but the Salo Republic is also set up in the North.

The link is in my signature if you want to try it.

 

[AlanC9]

SMEP's not a bad solution, though leaving the Italian army running around at full strength isn't all that realistic.

I've got a version where the Italian army completely disintegrates. Rome and points south belong to whoever gets there first. This might be too punishing for the AI; might have to hand these areas over to Germany outright.

 

[AlanC9]

In case anyone cares, I'm posting my reworked version over in Scenarios and Mods.

It preserves the Paradox intent somewhat. However, I've made the Germans seize the line from Anzio east, with a couple of whipped-up emergency units in Rome. And the Italian army just goes away, except for SRing units (can't touch those) - but those are hit with a GDE penalty, so they shouldn't be a factor.