What are the conditions for Italian surrender?

[AlanC9]

It's late here, and maybe I'm just confused. But I was looking at the Italian surrender event, and found this condition:

 # South Italy invaded
 NOT = {
    OR = {
	control = { province = 515 data = ITA } #Roma NOT controlled by Italy
	control = { province = 523 data = ITA } #Taranto NOT controlled by Italy
	control = { province = 525 data = ITA } #Siracusa NOT controlled by Italy
	control = { province = 526 data = ITA } #Messina NOT controlled by Italy
	control = { province = 522 data = ITA } #Cosenza NOT controlled by Italy
	control = { province = 521 data = ITA } #Napoli NOT controlled by Italy
				}
			}

It reads like it's supposed to fire when Italy loses control of one of the southern provinces. But doesn't the NOT>-OR logic mean that Italy has to lose all of them before the event fires?

What are people's experiences with Italian surrender? Never finished a UK game before, so I haven't seen this.

 

[blue emu]

The "NOT => OR" means that Italy must lose them all before the event will trigger, correct.

 

[unmerged(55538)]

I don't think that this is correct...

The OR-operation returns true if ONE of the arguments in brackets is true, the AND-conjunction returns true if ALL of them are true. The NOT-operation returns true if the operations in brackets return false...

Hence, the trigger-condition in this case is fullfilled, if ANY of these provinces is NOT controlled by Italy...

The opposite would be this (excerpt from event #36):

# South Italy captured
		#NOT = {
		#	AND = {
		#		control = { province = 523 data = ITA } #Taranto NOT controlled by Italy
		#		control = { province = 525 data = ITA } #Siracusa NOT controlled by Italy
		#		control = { province = 526 data = ITA } #Messina NOT controlled by Italy
		#		control = { province = 522 data = ITA } #Cosenza NOT controlled by Italy
		#		}
		#	}

 

[ohms_law]

the trigger condition in the first post means that if Italy has lost control any one of those provences, the event will be triggered.

 

[Hakkapeliitta]

the trigger condition in the first post means that if Italy has lost control any one of those provences, the event will be triggered.

No. It has to lose control of them all.

"Not (A or B or C)" is equivalent to "(Not A) and (Not B) and (Not C)".

 

[unmerged(55538)]

"Not (A or B or C)" is equivalent to "(Not A) and (Not B) and (Not C)".

Sure? AFAIK NOT(A or B or C) is equivalent to (NOT A) OR (NOT B) OR (NOT C)

 

[ohms_law]

No. It has to lose control of them all.

"Not (A or B or C)" is equivalent to "(Not A) and (Not B) and (Not C)".

read it again.

 

[Hakkapeliitta]

read it again.

Huh? Are you referring to the texts "#Roma NOT controlled by Italy" etc.

They have nothing to do with the actual event. The way it is written
is

Not (A or B or C or D or F or G).

Where A="Rome IS controlled by Italy"

Thus "(A or B or C or D or F or G)" is true if any of the places is controlled by Italy and hence "NOT (A or B or C or D or F or G)" is true if NONE of them are controlled by Italy.

 

[alanschu]

He's right, all of them have to be captured.


And yes, Not(A or B) is the same as (Not A) and (Not B)

De Morgan's Law

 

[ohms_law]

control = { province = 515 data = ITA }

read it again.

 

[unmerged(55538)]

tested it... and yes, not(a or b) equals (not a) AND (not b)... sorry, I goofed on that one...

but wasn't it meant to be

OR = {
  NOT = { ... }
  NOT = { ... }
  etc.
}

would make more sense IMO

 

[ohms_law]

aright, now i'm confused...
what?
lol

 

[alanschu]

I think it makes most sense that Italy loses ALL of those provinces before considering surrender (one makes it too easy).

Since some people still seem to be confused, I'll try to break it down.

It's clear that it's checking to see if control belongs to Italy, I think we can all agree on that.

control = { province = 515 data = ITA } is TRUE if province 515 belongs to Italy.

So it checks to see if Italy controls those provinces. But they are all in an OR { } block. So the OR { } block returns true, as long as Italy controls ONE of the listed provinces.

Finally, the OR { } block is contained within the NOT { } block, which basically just takes the value determined by the OR { } block, and flips it (TRUE becomes FALSE, FALSE becomes TRUE).

So, the OR { } block is TRUE if ANY of those provinces are still in Italy's possession. So all it needs is ONE province to be true. The ONLY time it is false, is if Italy controls NONE of those provinces.

So, if Italy controls ANY of them, then when it tries to verify that Italy does NOT control ANY of the provinces, it will return FALSE. (The OR block is TRUE, but the NOT flips it to FALSE). When Italy controls NONE (the OR block is FALSE), then when it checks to see if Italy does NOT have ANY provinces, it will be TRUE (because the NOT flips the OR block value, which is FALSE since Italy holds NONE of the provinces).

Ugh. Makes sense to me

 

[unmerged(55538)]

Then, according to DeMorgan's Law, this whole event is messed up... Italy has to lose all of S-Italy, but only one specific province in N-Africa... and the event only fires if Italy is split exactly in halve...

 

[alanschu]

Oh, going:

OR = {
   NOT = {} ....
   ....
   }

would not mimic the code, because if Italy loses ONE, then the OR will be true because there's a single instance inside that is true (the one province that Italy does NOT hold).

If you wanted to modify it, going

 AND = { 
    NOT = { ... }
    ....
}

would be equivalent.

 

[alanschu]

Nope, according to De Morgan's Law, this event is perfect.

The event fires only if Italy has lost all of the listed provinces.

AND = { 
    NOT { .... } 
}

is equivalent to NOT(a) and NOT(b) and NOT(c) ....

 

[unmerged(55538)]

Then, according to DeMorgan's Law, this whole event is messed up... Italy has to lose all of S-Italy, but only one specific province in N-Africa... and the event only fires if Italy is split exactly in halve...

sorry, edited this one

 

[unmerged(14249)]

Historically, Italy changed sides when the Allies had taken all of Sicily and then invaded the mainland at Salerno. The fall of Rome happened some time later after much fighting. Rome shouldn't be in that list - replace it with the missing southern province, 524 (Calabria).

The other conditions relating to northern Italy and Africa also need to be understood. It's easy to miss the chance of causing the surrender by doing it in the wrong order.

Andrew

 

[unmerged(55538)]

would not mimic the code, because if Italy loses ONE, then the OR will be true because there's a single instance inside that is true (the one province that Italy does NOT hold).

Didn't want to mimic the code, but change it, so that it makes more sense (imo)

(the developers seem to have ignored DeMorgan's Law the same way I did... If you inversed every condition, the event would work out fine...

 

[Hakkapeliitta]

It really is as blue emu, me and Alanschu have been saying all along:

italy has to lose ALL those provinces.

This is simple elementary logic.

If you are confused read either my reply to ohms_law:s first "read it again" comment or Alanschu's explanations.

Or read any "introduction to formal logic" book.

And also the event woulnd't make much sense gamewise if taking just one of the provinces would be enough to force Italy to surrender.

[edit: this was not meant for christophkk, but others who might still be confused by the thing]