What are the adv and disadv for each land doctrine?

[unmerged(30192)]

I know that there are 4 branches of land doctrine - the top left 1 and right 2, and the bottom left 3 and right 4 (names I can't remember), once you follow through one the rest are out-of-question and the only thing you can do to boost you troops performance is try rushing research of that branch (no more get-all-doctrines research as in HOI1). If I recall correctly, the German has the bottom left one 3. What advantage does it give? Anything not good about it? If I'm using huge manpower country like SU and China, which one is the best? What about France and England?

 

[Thistletooth]

Spearhead (bottom-left, associated with Germany) - High early org and morale. Morale levels off early, org always higher than anybody else's. Slight discount to Armor, Infantry (early), Motorized/Mechanized (late). High chace of offensive combat events, medium chance of defensive combat events, especially later.

Human Wave (bottom-right, associated with Soviet Union) - Low org from beginning to end, but highest morale during all years except for 1942. Nice infantry discount early being replaced with small Mot/Mech bonus later. Weak supply efficiency, not that great a chance of any combat events.

Superior Firepower (upper-left, associated with United State) - Low org and lower morale early. Doesn't get good until 1943, at which point it almost mirrors Blitzkrieg, with less events but better construction bonuses. Excellent supply efficiency and cheap infantry/artillery prior to 1942.

Grand Battle Plan (upper-right, split into three branches):

1. Attritional Containment (associated with France and Italy) - Medium org and morale, with poor org late but pretty good morale. Cheap infantry, artillery, and anti-tank from beginning to end. Medium supply, very poor chance of receiving combat events. No bonuses whatsoever for mobile divisions.

2. Operational Stages (associated with United Kingdom) - Mediocre morale and average org. Cheap infantry early, cheaper mot/mech later. Decent supply. Middle-of-the-road doctrine.

3. Infiltration (associated with Japan) - Low org and medium morale until 1942, when morale becomes very high. Huge bonus to night attacks, almost gamebreaking at times. Armor is very expensive, but militia and marines are a little cheaper. Infantry receives nice early construction bonus, but it doesn't get any better. Geared for infantry and night attacks.


Infiltration and Human Wave are generally considered to be the best, given that morale is better for attacking than org. Blitzkrieg is a close third, as it's very powerful during the first half of the game, when things are usually decided. The other three are clearly inferior in pretty much every respect.

Your manpower levels don't really matter insofar as doctrines are concerned. Blitzkrieg is better than Human Wave or Infiltration if you're outnumbered and is arguably better on the defense because of the extra org, while the other two are perhaps better on the offensive, at least from 1942 on. Prior to 1942, Blitzkrieg is the best and Superior Firepower is the worst. From 1942/3 on, Operational Stages and Attritional Containment are the worse, with Attritional passing Operational in 1944.

Prior to 1942:

1. Blitzkrieg
2. Human Wave
3. Infiltration/Operational/Attritional (identical)
6. Superior Firepower

1942/3

Correction:
1. Infiltration
2. Human Wave
3. Blitzkrieg (best only if outnumbered or on the defensive)
4. Superior Firepower (with tech rush)
5. Operational Stages
6. Attritional Containment

1944+

1. Infiltration
2. Human Wave
3. Blitzkrieg
4. Superior Firepower
5. Attritional Containment
6. Operational Stages

 

[unmerged(30192)]

Sorry but I believe that at the beginning of the game (well for 36 scernario) a nation can still change their preferences? So if I use France or UK under 36 scernario, I can forego Operation and Attrition but instead go Superior FP or Infiltration instead I suppose?
Also, morale is the speed of your organization replenishment right?

 

[tripp_trap]

Sorry but I believe that at the beginning of the game (well for 36 scernario) a nation can still change their preferences?

Yes, you are correct.

So if I use France or UK under 36 scernario, I can forego Operation and Attrition but instead go Superior FP or Infiltration instead I suppose?

Yepp.

Also, morale is the speed of your organization replenishment right?

Correct.

 

[Thistletooth]

Sorry but I believe that at the beginning of the game (well for 36 scernario) a nation can still change their preferences? So if I use France or UK under 36 scernario, I can forego Operation and Attrition but instead go Superior FP or Infiltration instead I suppose?
Also, morale is the speed of your organization replenishment right?

I didn't say you couldn't.

You can abandon land doctrines same as any other techs. Just know that your odds of receiving combat events might not be removed with the org, morale, and construction bonuses. Repeatedly reseraching and abandoning could conceivably raise certain odds to almost ridiculous levels. At least it used to; I don't know for certain if that bug has been corrected. If you want to abandon one or two doctrines and start down a new path, it might confer a tiny advantage, but nothing to worry about.

Yes, that is the role of morale. Very useful for maintaining the speed of your offensives, since both movement and combat will lower org, while the enemy will regain it as they retreat.

 

[Cytral]

and if you change doctrines does the old 1 (that you have researched) still stand as researched (so that if you change back you don't have to research it all over)

I know that if you change it it starts a blank

 

[unmerged(28592)]

and if you change doctrines does the old 1 (that you have researched) still stand as researched (so that if you change back you don't have to research it all over)

I know that if you change it it starts a blank

No, but you are left with a blueprint instead.

 

[Federkiel]

Thx Thistletooth!

This is definitely the best summary i have ever read on land doctrines!

 

[hito1]

Also remember, when changing doctrines, to consider your tech teams skills.

 

[mbb]

Is this summary worth a sticky or a link in an FAQ, please?

 

[unmerged(3221)]

There is already something at Wiki:

http://www.paradoxian.org/hoi2wiki/index.php/Land_Doctrine_FAQ#National_Doctrine_Summaries

 

[e-stab]

Thx Thistletooth!

This is definitely the best summary i have ever read on land doctrines!

I agree, it's a great summary. I think it should be merged and/or integrated with the current wiki information.

 

[unmerged(3221)]

I added a link a Wiki for it so that it can be easily found but I did not attempt to re edit the entire doctrine to combine the 2 sources.

http://www.paradoxian.org/hoi2wiki/index.php/Land_Doctrine_FAQ

 

[lwarmonger]

Hey, I was just adding numbers from the tech tree in DDA 1.1, and from what I see some of the information in the wiki doesn't quite add up. These numbers are just universal morale and org (meaning if the tech gives +30 morale for armor and mechanized I didn't include it because it wasn't effecting everything), but from what I'm adding together, the summation above and the one in Wiki aren't completely accurate. Keep in mind that these are additions from the first tech (meaning each addition simply added to the one before it) through the last (so ending in 1946 for all but the grand battle plan doctrines that end in 1944).

Org/Morale

Superior Firepower: 90/50
Human Wave: 40/110
Blitzkrieg: 75/50
Operational Stages: 55/50
Infiltration Assault: 40/150
Attritional Containment: 45/75

 

[unmerged(44926)]

Hey, I was just adding numbers from the tech tree in DDA 1.1, and from what I see some of the information in the wiki doesn't quite add up. These numbers are just universal morale and org (meaning if the tech gives +30 morale for armor and mechanized I didn't include it because it wasn't effecting everything), but from what I'm adding together, the summation above and the one in Wiki aren't completely accurate. Keep in mind that these are additions from the first tech (meaning each addition simply added to the one before it) through the last (so ending in 1946 for all but the grand battle plan doctrines that end in 1944).

Org/Morale

Superior Firepower: 90/50
Human Wave: 40/110
Blitzkrieg: 75/50
Operational Stages: 55/50
Infiltration Assault: 40/150
Attritional Containment: 45/75

You know, I've always just taken the advice of the wiki and what people have posted as correct... Actually stopping to read what the techs do kinda changes the picture, doesn't it?

If the numbers you counted are the actual effects, then Infiltration is insanely good, and Superior Firepower is a lot better than anybody recognized. (especially because there is another +30/+30 for ARM and MEC in 1946, isn't there?)

 

[lwarmonger]

You know, I've always just taken the advice of the wiki and what people have posted as correct... Actually stopping to read what the techs do kinda changes the picture, doesn't it?

Well, actually I wasn't checking, I just added the numbers together myself, and when I saw this topic I saw that it didn't quite track with what I had come up with. But since they have been playing with the doctrines, I want to be sure that experienced players who do give a great deal of advice haven't overlooked something.

If the numbers you counted are the actual effects, then Infiltration is insanely good, and Superior Firepower is a lot better than anybody recognized. (especially because there is another +30/+30 for ARM and MEC in 1946, isn't there?)

I think that infiltration is probably the best doctrine in the game as long as you are an infantry heavy nation (as stated by Thistletooth and Wiki). Superior Firepower does look a bit better though with what I added up, although that +30 morale for ARM and MECH is for Human Wave in '46, while I believe Superior Firepower gets a +20 morale boost for units brigaded with artillery.

Also, Human wave gets -10 org for infantry units and significant bonuses to militia if the player chooses the 1944 Guerilla warfare tech (I don't, but generally when I am pursuing that line of doctrine I am playing as the Soviet Union, and don't bother with militia).

And one other assumption that I made was that as the Blitzkrieg Doctrine, the player would choose the "Modern Blitzkrieg" end path (with +5 org), instead of the "Volksturm" path (with trickleback addition and significant bonuses to defense).

 

[Thistletooth]

Hey, I was just adding numbers from the tech tree in DDA 1.1, and from what I see some of the information in the wiki doesn't quite add up. These numbers are just universal morale and org (meaning if the tech gives +30 morale for armor and mechanized I didn't include it because it wasn't effecting everything), but from what I'm adding together, the summation above and the one in Wiki aren't completely accurate. Keep in mind that these are additions from the first tech (meaning each addition simply added to the one before it) through the last (so ending in 1946 for all but the grand battle plan doctrines that end in 1944).

Org/Morale

Superior Firepower: 90/50
Human Wave: 40/110
Blitzkrieg: 75/50
Operational Stages: 55/50
Infiltration Assault: 40/150
Attritional Containment: 45/75

Numbers are a little off.

Every nation start with Org/Morale 30/30, so it's important to distinguish the final result of the doctrines and the sum of the bonuses. I'll list the bonuses.

Once all the doctrines have been researched (Volksturm isn't counted), the results are:

Superior Firepower: 70/50 (you counted both 1943 techs for org, when you're only allowed to research one)
Human Wave: 40/110
Blitzkrieg: 75/50
Operational Stages: 55/50
Infiltration Assault: 40/100 (I don't know where you came up with 150, unless you're counting the total morale for divisions with art attached, but aren't counting the org bonus, or counting either for the other Grand Battle Plan techs)
Attritional Containment: 45/75

I think that infiltration is probably the best doctrine in the game as long as you are an infantry heavy nation (as stated by Thistletooth and Wiki). Superior Firepower does look a bit better though with what I added up, although that +30 morale for ARM and MECH is for Human Wave in '46, while I believe Superior Firepower gets a +20 morale boost for units brigaded with artillery.

The Grand Battle Plan techs receive the +20org/+20morale tech.

Also, Human wave gets -10 org for infantry units and significant bonuses to militia if the player chooses the 1944 Guerilla warfare tech (I don't, but generally when I am pursuing that line of doctrine I am playing as the Soviet Union, and don't bother with militia).

Like with Volksturm, I'm not counting Guerilla Warfare, as it's generally agreed that it's not worth it.

And one other assumption that I made was that as the Blitzkrieg Doctrine, the player would choose the "Modern Blitzkrieg" end path (with +5 org), instead of the "Volksturm" path (with trickleback addition and significant bonuses to defense).

Tiny bonus to defense. Volksturm is the weakest doctrine in the game. Technically, Superior Firepower's Delay Doctrine and Human Wave's Pocket Defense is better, since neither really does much.

 

[Beamed]

So basically, the question of Human Wave and Infiltration boils down to whether or not the Night attack bonuses are worth 10 morale.

 

[Thistletooth]

So basically, the question of Human Wave and Infiltration boils down to whether or not the Night attack bonuses are worth 10 morale.

Well...not quite that simple. Each doctrine path advances at a different speed, with the difference being very pronounced during certain years. Also, Human Wave gets small discounts to mobile units, while Infiltration actually suffers a penalty.

Year.....HumanWave...Infiltration
1936.......40/80............50/40
1937.......50/80............50/40
1938.......50/80............50/70
1939.......50/80............50/70
1940.......50/100...........60/80
1941.......70/100...........60/80
1942.......70/100...........70/130 (+10% night attack)
1943.......70/140...........70/130 (+50% night attack)
1947.......70/170*.........90/150** (+50% night attack)

* - Mechanized and Armor only
** - Divisions with Artillery only

The nightfighting bonus, however, trumps all from 1943 on. +50% night attack means that you are never affected by attacking at night, while the opponent is. Technically, you attack better during the night than they can defend; -30% penalty to their -33%. It's gamebreaking once you get far enough in the game to research it. The final tech makes this gap even wider, even at the cost of a little speed and the cost of the Artillery.

 

[NikkTheTrick]

It is also important to note that another very important advantage of night attacks is that the enemy cannot effectively counterattack since they will suffer -80% nightfighting penalty (fighting at 1/5 efficiency!) while infiltration on defense receives +17% bonus (instead of -33% penalty).