What are reasons to be a democracy?

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elessar90

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The ideologies don't need to be balanced against each other. One ideology having a restriction doesn't mean it needs an ability to make up for it.

All the ideologies need to do is reasonably represent how countries in this time period acted.


I think that everything in the game should be balanced in order to make it replayable. If this will be just railroad game or something, we will have less choices and nobody will think about switching to democracy for real.
These countries was democracies because of something at least. This ideology has its benefits, hasn't it?
For example: better national unity, industrial output or something else.

What a reason for not representing them in HOI?
 
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uishax

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Well, theoretically democracies should have bonuses to trade, since they have a lot less potential enemies in the world.
Kind of like how the Free market slider in the former Hearts of Iron games. I don't believe any dictatorships of the time would have anything close to resembling a free market.
The staunchest defenders of free trade in the world right now are not exactly pristine democracies: Singapore, Hong Kong, UAE.
On the other hand, most of the major democracies right now are tempted towards protectionism.

Democracy does not influence the the tendency to trade, ideology does.
 

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Its more about the nation and their context in the world rather than the ideology. Discounting Roleplay reasons obviously democracy is inferior to fascism and communism which get much more easy access to war goals, conquest, glorious clay, puppets etc.

but just look at some of the best democracies to play

Poland - crazy difficult defense against the germans
France - a bit easier, but still difficult defense against the germans
UK - fighting all over the world against multiple strong axis nations as you are the life boat of democracy in the dark times after france falls and before the US enters the war
USA - waging a 2 front war on all theatres land, sea and air against the japanese and germans and italy. Gives you loads of invading and fighting to do.

Its not like the democracies have boring games. Except maybe USA because you as a player getting to manipulate the world from extreme safety from 1936 - 1941 while building the doomstack of CVs and mechanised to end all doomstacks where even crushing defeats can simply be overlooked and more production being made makes the game rather easy.

That in itself is enough reason to play a democracy.

that is only following historical route too, there are many more ways to play of course
 
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uishax

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I think that everything in the game should be balanced in order to make it replayable. If this will be just railroad game or something, we will have less choices and nobody will think about switching to democracy for real.
At least these countries was democracies because of something. This ideology has its benefits, haven't it?
For example: better national unity, industrial output or something else.

What a reason for not representing them in HOI?
If you are a democracy you may get diplomacy benfits by buddying up with the allies.
But if your goal is conquest, there should be zero advantages for democracies.
Did france or USSR have better national unity?
Industrial output is determined by economic laws.
 

Elwin00

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Democracy should have some gameplay benefits but obviously no warfare benefits. And since this is a game about an all out war, perhaps having democracy is meant to be an interesting decision to be made in HOI4: with the war inevitably drawing near, will I invest resources (political points, time, equipment/manpower in case of uprisings) to transition to a different ideology, weakening me for a short time but growing stronger in the long run? Or improve my situation by investing the resources elsewhere and staying crippled for the rest of the war.
 

Denkt

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The UK was more productive than the USSR? You might need to back that one up with some numbers.
Well UK did a massive naval investment only second to USA (and even then UK outproduce USA in several ship categories) while Soviet naval production was nearly non existent. UK produced alot more heavy aircrafts then Soviet, and had a lead in pretty much all aircraft categories other then attack and transport. UK dropped about half the allied bombs in europe. UK produced alot more trucks then Soviet and while Soviet had a clear advantage in tank production and artillery production UK beat them so severely in other categories that it is not even close in who had more efficient production.

In any case, I don't think they were productive because they were democracies, they were countries with a lot of industry that happened to be democracies.
Well the workers could be more motivated to work under a democracy then under a dictatorship.
 

elessar90

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Well the workers could be more motivated to work under a democracy then under a dictatorship.
Actually soviet workers were very motivated too, but for different reasons. And german ones also :)
They all believed that their regime was true freedom, but democracies was just slaves of capitalism. Propaganda done its work well.
 
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Gort11

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Well the workers could be more motivated to work under a democracy then under a dictatorship.

Maybe? You could probably make the opposite argument just as convincingly. I don't think there's any real science to back this kind of thing up.
 
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Miinda

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The staunchest defenders of free trade in the world right now are not exactly pristine democracies: Singapore, Hong Kong, UAE.
On the other hand, most of the major democracies right now are tempted towards protectionism.

Democracy does not influence the the tendency to trade, ideology does.

Right now is irrelevant. I'd argue that during the time-scope of the game, the democracies of the world were a lot more leaning towards free trade than the fascists or communists were during the same era.
I do not believe that Free Market / Free Trade = Democracy, but I am still able to see a clear pattern in between the free market situation in the Soviet Union, Fascist Spain and Germany compared to the USA.
 

uishax

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Right now is irrelevant. I'd argue that during the time-scope of the game, the democracies of the world were a lot more leaning towards free trade than the fascists or communists were during the same era.
I do not believe that Free Market / Free Trade = Democracy, but I am still able to see a clear pattern in between the free market situation in the Soviet Union, Fascist Spain and Germany compared to the USA.
Free markets/trade aren't even neccesarily good during wartimes. US+Britain rationed food, for a good reason.
Free markets work because they stimulate people's incentives (profit) to voluntarily work at maximum efficiency. But during total war, people don't need profit to work the hardest they can, because the alternative is the invader coming in and confiscating all of your properties.
Traditional economic theory does not apply to total war.
 
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LordOfWar16

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I dont see why anyone would switch to democracy themself anyway. This will only result in a civil war and is very hard for countries like germany and the soviet union for example, since they have alot of protection against ideology drift. The only case where i see it actually being considered is when you want to play with a friend that happens to be democratic and dont want to be the aggressors.

Anyway, democracies have their benefits just as fascism and communsim does. First of all you get a big bonus to relations with other democratic nations, which happens to be most of the countries back then. Fascism and Communism clearly is in the minority here. Then you get the option for free market, which you probably dont really want to use as a fascist or communist country. As democrats cant fully mobilize and War Economy has harsh requirements for Democratic nations and cant close their economy entirely as fascists and commies can. This will result in research bonuses, faster industrial growth time and of course more civilian factories to built even more factories. A massive bonus you have as a democratic nation straight away are obivously the USA, UK and (if they still exist) France, which have alot of resources to share and dont like seeing democratic nations being attacked, i.e granting protection.

They obviously cant be the war mongers fascists or communists can be, even tho some of the major countries get focuses that allow them to declare war on other democracies which they otherwise cant, like the UK invading democratic Norway for example, this is not really something you will see too often. You can basicly see it (GAME WISE) as democracies basicly being the world police that play the "nice guys", while the communists want to puppet and bring communist to everyone and the fascists wanting to build their empires with a closed, self sufficient economy.
 
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Denkt

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I am pretty sure all nations can use free trade law if nothing have changed and democracies have access to the total mobilization law but they have more requirement to mobilize the economy.
 

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I am pretty sure all nations can use free trade law if nothing have changed and democracies have access to the total mobilization law but they have more requirement to mobilize the economy.

War Economy:
One of the following must be true:
*Ruling party is Fascist
*Ruling party is Communist
If neither of the above are true, all of the following must be true:
*At war
*Any enemy country must have at least 40% of your number of factories

I dont think we know the requirements for Total Mobilization yet tho, but i can imagine it is extremely hard for democracies to do so if it isnt exclusive to fascists and/or commies.
 

Denkt

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You need to be at war to be able to pick the total mobilization law so I doubt the requirements otherwise is much higher, maybe 50% factories.

40% is not that high, if you have 600 factories you can pick the law if an enemy have atleast 240 factories.

I dont think we know the requirements for Total Mobilization yet tho, but i can imagine it is extremely hard for democracies to do so if it isnt exclusive to fascists and/or commies.

It could be the same no matter ideology.
 
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jockedahl

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What about giving democracies some bonus to civilian factories production or something like that? Or maybe they already have that. In the sense that democracies tend to have a more efficient economy, giving them a good ability to repair infrastructure and trade.
 
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elessar90

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What about giving democracies some bonus to civilian factories production or something like that? Or maybe they already have that. In the sense that democracies tend to have a more efficient economy, giving them a good ability to repair infrastructure and trade.

I'm really will vote for this!
We definitely need @podcat here to explain :)
 

Denkt

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The mobilization laws democracies are stuck with give penalties to building civilian factories and military factories. Civilian economy law is actually much worse at building civilian factories then war economy;)

@LordOfWar16 I looked at the Poland stream and saw Total mobilization (at 14.25).

The requirements are you must be at war with an enemy country with atleast 50% of your factories.

It also do reduce the amount of population you can recruit by 3%.
 
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