What are people's thoughts on Subterfuge now that it's been out for awhile?

[Fenris_SE]

TLDR: Is Subterfuge any good? It doesn't need to be OP. I like creating and RPing Empires, so they don't always need to be min/maxed. Just not sure if it's any good or just sucks.

I've been thinking about getting Subterfuge as a tradition, but honestly just can't seem to pull the trigger and wind up taking something else instead. I do miss the days of actually being able to see what load outs the AI are using, but using a tradition just to see that, when I can just spam gather intel until I get an idea of their fleet power makes Subterfuge just seem meh. I'd almost rather just sacrifice a naked corvette and look closely at what weapons I see being fired.

I was thinking of making an Empire based around Subterfuge. They'd appear as the "good guys" from all outward appearances but constantly harass and instigate conflict between other empires. Is it even worth it? If all I can do are smear campaigns that lead to nothing (don't know how effective they are), and a few sabotages from time to time that don't really amount to much, it just doesn't seem like it'd be a fun playthrough.

 

[Echo Candor One]

It works really well.

But the thing it works on is a little under-tuned right now, so it doesn't feel as strong as, say, Domination (extra influence, raw materials, and edicts!) or Unyielding (extra starbases, stronger starbases).

Using operations to secure assets and stealing tech are both great. Assets help you get better intel, and the right assets make stealing tech work better, offering you a very nice 10% bonus, or weaken enemy research (this is usually a 5000 energy value, and you'll be spending significantly less, as long as you're keeping your operations active.)

I have tried other operations with assets to see if they also give a similar boost to the operation, but haven't been able to find other cool combinations (though I am sure they exist, since the tech stealing + scientist asset interaction is there.)

Having intel on people you want to attack is strong. You can end up knowing a lot more than sensors would give you about enemy ship locations, and that's nice, but it's frustrating to try to get detailed builds of enemy ships.

 

[moyang]

Subterfuge allows you to do more operations. Problem is spy operations are just bad - just too bad that I can't even see its RP application.

 

[Ryika]

To me it seems like the Subterfuge traditions are trying to compensate for how weak the espionage system is by giving out disproportional bonuses.
But the problem isn't about the numbers being too low, the problem is with how the system works, and the options that it provides.

So the few times I tried it it didn't actually translate into a noticeable difference. I still sit there and wonder what I'm supposed to do with my spies except play the steal tech roulette.

 

[legionof1]

To me it seems like the traditions is trying to compensate for how weak the espionage system is by giving out disproportional bonuses.
But the problem isn't about the numbers being too low, the problem is with how the system works, and the options that it provides.

So the few times I tried it it didn't actually translate into a noticeable difference. I still sit there and wonder what I'm supposed to do with my spies except play the steal tech roulette.

Exactly this, the bonuses are huge but the system they are applied to is almost pointless. It's probably the strongest tree in terms of bonus amounts given out, but 2000% or 20% of zero is still zero.

 

[Dragatus]

As others have pointed out, it's not Subterfuge that is weak, it's the operations themselves.

I've tried using smear campaigns to ruin the relations between two allies so they'd break up their defense pact in the past and it just didn't have any effect. Most of the time either the two affected empires are friends and the penalty is too small to have an effect or they already hate each other in which case it's not needed. In my current game I got several popups about how my rival is plotting against me and choosing between believing the rumors or not I always picked believing them because it gave me free Unity and we were at each other's throats anyway.

Maybe if you manage to hit the relations between two empires that are hovering around 0 opinion of each other and they both happen to get a free envoy at just the right time to start harming relations it could throw them on a downward spiral, but it's unlikely.

The main thing Subterfuge is good for then is faster Intel gathering and while that's nice, it's not a priority and you are throwing away 2 traditions in the process. It might be fine as a 5th or later tradition in a galaxy with enough AIs, but I wouldn't recommend basing your entire RP on it.

You'd get more mileage out of the Behind the Scenes origin from the 2020 Modjam (description image).

 

[A2ch0n]

I play with subterfuge any single game and in my opinion it is a really good tradition for it's own. But it could be improved. First, beureau of espionage (edict) should be part of the tradition instead of the phys tech. That would be a logical step. Second, the actual finisher should be part of another perk (most likely in par with the encryption +1 trait). Instead a finisher should upgrade the existing operations to have much more impact.
Especially all relation manipulating operations need a buff. The first is a flexible targeting of all empires (without a restriction to the three "best firends"). The second is more impact for a single operation, maybe with increased difficulty. One to three operations should be enough to split a federation or a defensive pact and maybe one or two more should ignite the spark of war.
Steal technology should steal at least 80% of the tech.
Sabotage Starbase should deactivate it for a certain time completely.
And so on. I've talked about problems with the far to weak espionage operations a lot in the past in my Espionage megathread post and i really hope the custodian team will improve this in the future.

The only really good operations that don't need a change are Aquire Asset and prepare sleeper cells. Extort favor is kinda good as well, but maybe some extras would be nice.
The Subterfuge tradition for it's own is really good and with a few minor changes it could be easily one of the most impactfull picks in the game (if you like cloak and dagger games of course). So i think, the focus should lie on the operations, not on the Tradition!