What Are Cadet Branches? II

[Chlodio]

The roman number implies that this thread isn't the first with that question and that's correct, but the previous thread was CK2 oriented... While this thread will be about historical and modern understanding of cadet branches.

Before Richard York (who invented the houses of Plantagenet, York and Lancaster) all rulers of England after King Stephen were actually from house d'Anjou because that was the house of Geoffrey V, the Count of Anjou. I'm going to assume that all cadet branches are just anachronistic fiction like the case with d'Anjous.

But what's the deal with modern cadet branches? Why doesn't modern house of de Bourbon see itself as the house Capet, when even Louis XVI was known as Louis Capet?

 

[Arilou]

Essentially it's a way of keeping track once family trees gets too tangled.

 

[Attalus]

Capetian branches have a certain explanation.
Valois was formalized as a name because of the Hundred Years War, them competing with the Plantagenets for the inheritance of the Capetians. It then sticked and that until Henri III.
The Bourbons were a very distinct branch of the family. They were the heirs of one of the sons of St-Louis, so when Henry IV took power it had been 400 years they had been a "distinct" family.

On the whole some cadet branches are very arbitrary and you have no manuel on how to distinguish families with cadet branches.

 

[stevieji]

Before Richard York (who invented the houses of Plantagenet, York and Lancaster) all rulers of England after King Stephen were actually from house d'Anjou because that was the house of Geoffrey V, the Count of Anjou.

This seems a little muddled - not surprisingly, because it's ridiculously complicated. Geoffrey of Anjou had the nickname 'Plantagenet' in the 12th century and Angevin (meaning of Anjou) and Plantagenet are basically interchangeable. Henry II was the first Angevin/Plantagenet King of England - having been Count of Anjou before ascending the throne - he was the next King after Stephen of Blois.
Plantagenet became the 'official' family name after King John lost Anjou - Angevin being no longer appropriate.

The term 'cadet' actually refers to a monarch's younger sons who might inherit a lesser title than the first-born. The most obvious example is the Bourbon Spanish monarchy, which was a cadet branch of the Capetians who you mention.

The House of York can be said to be a cadet branch of the House of Lancaster, but they're all Plantaganets.
I have a feeling I've made a terrible job of explaining this.

 

[Chlodio]

Plantagenet became the 'official' family name after King John lost Anjou - Angevin being no longer appropriate.

How would that make any sense?

Richard of York, 3rd Duke of York, adopted Plantagenet as his family name in the 15th century. "Plantegenest" (or "Plante Genest") had been a 12th-century nickname for his ancestor Geoffrey, count of Anjou and duke of Normandy. One of many popular theories suggests the common broom, planta genista in medieval Latin, as the source of the nickname. It is uncertain why Richard chose this specific name, although during the Wars of the Roses it emphasised Richard's status as Geoffrey's patrilineal descendant. The retrospective usage of the name for all of Geoffrey's male descendants was popular during the subsequent Tudor dynasty, perhaps encouraged by the further legitimacy it gave to Richard's great-grandson, Henry VIII. It was only in the late 17th century that it passed into common usage among historians.

 

[PANGI]

The term 'cadet' actually refers to a monarch's younger sons who might inherit a lesser title than the first-born. The most obvious example is the Bourbon Spanish monarchy, which was a cadet branch of the Capetians who you mention.

how spanish kingdom has any meaning in this statement?

 

[stevieji]

how spanish kingdom has any meaning in this statement?

Not sure I understand the question, but this is from Wikipedia...
House of Bourbon; descendants of a younger son of Louis IX of France who, in the person of Henry IV of France inherited the throne of France from the senior Capetian line of the Valois in 1589; and from which sprang the Bourbon kings of Spain (including the Carlist and French legitimist lines)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cadet_branch#Notable_cadet_branches

 

[stevieji]

How would that make any sense?

Richard of York, 3rd Duke of York, adopted Plantagenet as his family name in the 15th century. "Plantegenest" (or "Plante Genest") had been a 12th-century nickname for his ancestor Geoffrey, count of Anjou and duke of Normandy. One of many popular theories suggests the common broom, planta genista in medieval Latin, as the source of the nickname. It is uncertain why Richard chose this specific name, although during the Wars of the Roses it emphasised Richard's status as Geoffrey's patrilineal descendant. The retrospective usage of the name for all of Geoffrey's male descendants was popular during the subsequent Tudor dynasty, perhaps encouraged by the further legitimacy it gave to Richard's great-grandson, Henry VIII. It was only in the late 17th century that it passed into common usage among historians.

I'm not sure I understand. You don't tell me anything here that I didn't already know. Possibly the problem is that I have tried to simplify things as far as possible - and the Plantagenet name is applied retrospectively by historians. I'm not even sure that English monarchs would have used any family name at the time, but it ceases to make any sense to use the name Angevin when the crown no longer has an connection to Anjou.
Modern historians will usually agree that the House of Plantagenet starts with Henry II and ends with Richard II, but this makes no distinction with the Angevin name - and regards the House of Lancaster as a separate entity. Personally I have always regarded Henry V as a Plantagenet, but I suppose a line has to be drawn after Richard II was removed and replaced with Henry IV - who IIRC was his first cousin.
The first reference I found in a search was the following (non-academic) site ...
http://www.britroyals.com/rulers.htm
It shows Henry II, Richard I and John as House of Angevin - followed by Plantagenets from Henry III - and Lancaster from Henry IV.

 

[PANGI]

Not sure I understand the question, but this is from Wikipedia...
House of Bourbon; descendants of a younger son of Louis IX of France who, in the person of Henry IV of France inherited the throne of France from the senior Capetian line of the Valois in 1589; and from which sprang the Bourbon kings of Spain (including the Carlist and French legitimist lines)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cadet_branch#Notable_cadet_branches

well ascending the throne of spain doesnt have any impact of being cadet branch of capets...bourbouns also ruled states in italy

 

[Fornadan]

IIRC, at the outbreak of the Hundred Years War, Edward III addressed his letters to "Philip de Valois" and the French king made a point of not knowing who that was


I believe the categorization of medieval nobles and rulers into neat dynasties with their own names is mostly the work of modern age genealogists

 

[Arilou]

I believe the categorization of medieval nobles and rulers into neat dynasties with their own names is mostly the work of modern age genealogists

Definitely. Especially in Scandinavia.

 

[stevieji]

well ascending the throne of spain doesnt have any impact of being cadet branch of capets...bourbouns also ruled states in italy

I'm sorry, I really don't understand what you're trying to say. All I can do is provide facts ...

The House of Bourbon (English /ˈbɔːrbən/; French: [buʁˈbɔ̃]) is a European royal house of French origin, a branch of the Capetian dynasty (/kəˈpiːʃⁱən/). Bourbon kings first ruled France and Navarre in the 16th century. By the 18th century, members of the Bourbon dynasty also held thrones in Spain, Naples, Sicily, and Parma. Spain and Luxembourg currently have Bourbon monarchs.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/House_of_Bourbon

Bourbon is a cadet branch of Capet.
The current King of Spain is a Bourbon.
Yes, Bourbons also ruled in Naples, Sicily and Parma ... so what?

 

[IsadorBG]

The thing with House's name is just to highlight that they are other dynasty member that are not part of that specific Branch.

House of Bourbon is Capetian but not all Capetian are Bourbon this avoid confusion when different House interact with each others like Valois and Burgundy for exemple.

Likewise now they are Bourbon of Spain, Bourbon of Orléans (or simply of Orléans), Bourbon-Parma and many other branches of House of Bourbon with itself is just a part of the Capetians dynasty.

So to answer why Bourbon did not style themselve as Capet ?

Well they are. The true name of the House is Capetians House of Bourbon not just House of Bourbon.

I guess that the reason why Louis XVI just got named Louis Capet after he abdicated was a symbol to show that King or not he was just a normal French and not a privilegied noble.

As "of a place" was often an indication of noble lineage so Louis of Bourbon was probably not kindly seen in Revolutionnary France.

 

[Chlodio]

The thing with House's name is just to highlight that they are other dynasty member that are not part of that specific Branch.

House of Bourbon is Capetian but not all Capetian are Bourbon this avoid confusion when different House interact with each others like Valois and Burgundy for exemple.

Likewise now they are Bourbon of Spain, Bourbon of Orléans (or simply of Orléans), Bourbon-Parma and many other branches of House of Bourbon with itself is just a part of the Capetians dynasty.

So to answer why Bourbon did not style themselve as Capet ?

Well they are. The true name of the House is Capetians House of Bourbon not just House of Bourbon.

I guess that the reason why Louis XVI just got named Louis Capet after he abdicated was a symbol to show that King or not he was just a normal French and not a privilegied noble.

As "of a place" was often an indication of noble lineage so Louis of Bourbon was probably not kindly seen in Revolutionnary France.

That pretty much answers all my questions, thank you.

 

[PANGI]

I'm sorry, I really don't understand what you're trying to say. All I can do is provide facts ...

The House of Bourbon (English /ˈbɔːrbən/; French: [buʁˈbɔ̃]) is a European royal house of French origin, a branch of the Capetian dynasty (/kəˈpiːʃⁱən/). Bourbon kings first ruled France and Navarre in the 16th century. By the 18th century, members of the Bourbon dynasty also held thrones in Spain, Naples, Sicily, and Parma. Spain and Luxembourg currently have Bourbon monarchs.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/House_of_Bourbon

Bourbon is a cadet branch of Capet.
The current King of Spain is a Bourbon.
Yes, Bourbons also ruled in Naples, Sicily and Parma ... so what?

nothing important really...i was just struck that you specifically wrote -bourbon spanish monarchy- as it should have any significance. bourbons are just bourbons

 

[PANGI]

The House of York can be said to be a cadet branch of the House of Lancaster, but they're all Plantaganets.
I have a feeling I've made a terrible job of explaining this.

also...i dont think this is true. both yorks and lancasters are branches originated from edward iii sons.

 

[stevieji]

also...i dont think this is true. both yorks and lancasters are branches originated from edward iii sons.

Yes ... Edward III was also a Plantagenet. You seem to be doing that thing again where you're both agreeing and disagreeing at the same time. Please stop it - it's very disconcerting.

 

[PANGI]

Yes ... Edward III was also a Plantagenet. You seem to be doing that thing again where you're both agreeing and disagreeing at the same time. Please stop it - it's very disconcerting.

my problem was just that you wrote that yorks are branch of lancasters - thats not true

 

[stevieji]

my problem was just that you wrote that yorks are branch of lancasters - thats not true

Thanks for clarifying - we agree that both Lancaster and York are descended from Edward III. The direct line ended with Richard II and the Lancaster line comes down from John of Gaunt (1st Duke of Lancaster), who was the next of Edward III's children to have an heir.

The Yorkist line comes from Edmund (1st Duke of York) - a younger son of Edward III, which seems like the definition of a cadet branch - going across the family tree to find the next son in line. So by my reading, Lancaster would be a cadet of Plantagenet - and York a cadet of Lancaster - moving across the line, one son each time.

However, I am reading now that both Lancaster and York are regarded as cadet branches of Plantagenet, so perhaps you are right. The problem is that Richard II was overthrown, so neither Lancaster or York were direct heirs, but it's clear that Lancaster is the senior line of the two.

To be honest, I made that suggestion on the basis of a much simpler family tree than the one I'm looking at now. This one is so complicated that I wouldn't make any claims with too much confidence.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/English_monarchs_family_tree

 

[PANGI]

i think its quite simple:

trunk: plantegenets - branch A - Lancasters

- branch B -Yorks​