What allowed untrained and unequipped armies to beat the opposite?

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Graf Zeppelin

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Pompeii was a rich city in the richest part of the Empire though. It's like taking Beverly hills as a representative sample of the population of California.
Sure, it still defeats the notion that Romans been pygmies. Its also not the only data available.
Also if you take the size of the inhabitants of Beverly hills you wont be to far of the national average.

The size for a Legionary in Neros weird Phalanx was 1,75cm-1,78cm but thats guard size I guess.

Mind you Germans been still taller than Romans.
 
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Geriander

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Also if you take the size of the inhabitants of Beverly hills you wont be to far of the national average.
.

Wealth inequality in the modern day US is less likely to result in malnutrition caused height differences than in pre-20th century societies.
 

Henry IX

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Yeah underestimate Crassus as before he came in actions others tried also and lost badly. Also Crassus got beaten by the Parthians come on now there the freaking Parthians.
This is the longest living empire that was in constant war these are hardened warriors. Not like romans with their 100 years of peace and prosperity.

Crassus was really not very good - he decimated the legions, something that Roman authors noted as being an ineffective way of improving performance and he marched into a desert with inadequate provisions and intelligence. He was fairly competent but arrogant and inflexible.

The Parthian empire was a significantly younger empire then the Romans and it fell significantly before the Romans. In general they were beaten by the Romans most of the time, despite the fact they were generally only facing the boarder legions. The Romans were able to detach Armenia and a substantial province from the Parthians, and hold it against them until the very end of the Nisbis wars, by which point the Roman empire was already in chaos. The recovery of these areas only occurred under the successors to the Parthians (the Sassanids).

Without a doubt the Parthian cavalry was formidable, particularly when operating on friendly territory, but it was not actually that powerful when faced with a properly equipped and led forces.

The main problem Rome faced by the end of the Triumvirate was that it was exhausted by war, not that it was too long at peace. The highly veteran eastern legions had been in regular conflict since the reign of Mithridates IV (the Great). They had recently been on campaign in Georgia and would still have had many veteran legionaries from this and previous wars.
 

sleeperul

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Crassus was really not very good - he decimated the legions, something that Roman authors noted as being an ineffective way of improving performance and he marched into a desert with inadequate provisions and intelligence. He was fairly competent but arrogant and inflexible.

The Parthian empire was a significantly younger empire then the Romans and it fell significantly before the Romans. In general they were beaten by the Romans most of the time, despite the fact they were generally only facing the boarder legions. The Romans were able to detach Armenia and a substantial province from the Parthians, and hold it against them until the very end of the Nisbis wars, by which point the Roman empire was already in chaos. The recovery of these areas only occurred under the successors to the Parthians (the Sassanids).

Without a doubt the Parthian cavalry was formidable, particularly when operating on friendly territory, but it was not actually that powerful when faced with a properly equipped and led forces.

The main problem Rome faced by the end of the Triumvirate was that it was exhausted by war, not that it was too long at peace. The highly veteran eastern legions had been in regular conflict since the reign of Mithridates IV (the Great). They had recently been on campaign in Georgia and would still have had many veteran legionaries from this and previous wars.
Where those veterans quite old and past their prime quite past their prime?
 

Henry IX

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Where those veterans quite old and past their prime quite past their prime?

8-10 years into 20 year service for the younger veterans. No young and fresh by any means but certainly not yet beyond physical effectiveness. Many of the legionaries may have been fresh/green but there would have been a good smattering of experienced veterans to show them the ropes.

It is possible that the legions the Crassus led were all freshly raised, we have no information about them in the sources, but it seems likely that they were fairly veteran. There was a large number of ex-legionaries suffering from poverty at this point in time and I assume they would have been easy to recruit for any new legions raised. Certainly, the actual military performance of legionaries on the occasions they came to grips with the Parthians, was good, and the Parthians admired the bravery of the legionaries (at least according to Roman sources), saving their contempt for Crassus.
 

Graf Zeppelin

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Wealth inequality in the modern day US is less likely to result in malnutrition caused height differences than in pre-20th century societies.
Excellent, which means that Beverly Hills would be a valid sample and further eroding his argument.
 
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Geriander

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Excellent, which means that Beverly Hills would be a valid sample and further erdoding his argument.

I’m saying that Beverly Hills would be a more valid sample for the height of Americans than Pompeii would be for the height of Romans.

The field slaves, mine slaves and urban poor of the Roman Empire are groups that could suffer childhood malnutrition but would not be represented in Pompeii. They could very well be as short as medieval serfs without this showing up in the Pompeii sample.
 

bz249

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Of course. We need to be prepared for the day when the dead start rising from their graves and we have to fight in melee combat against reanimated skeleton armies that are immune to bullets!

Why would skeleton armies immune to bullets? Or do they have magic adamantine bones that are immune bullets? It is fine that much more bullets are needed to destroy a skeleton than to cool down a warm human body, but it is a logistical issue not a tactical one.
 

Kovax

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The slaves wouldn't have been the typical source of recruits during most of Rome's existence, although the urban poor would likely have been a major source of manpower for the Legions. Later, those slaves would have included a number of the Gauls and Germans, likely raising the average height of slaves in general compared to the rest of the Roman population.
 

gagenater

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The Roman average male was taller (a little)at 10 AD than the average European male in 1920. Europeans surpased the average Romans of this time roughly in the 1940-50s.

The Average size for men found in Pompeji was 1,69. You can assume that the average soldier is a bit taller.



People been in general much taller in antiquitiy in Europe/Mediteranen than in the middle ages.

People constantly underestimated the Romans because they were individually on the smallish side. This happened in Gaul, where the barbarian celts grew to what we would consider 'normal' size thanks to better nutrition caused by lower population densities, and ready access to hunting opportunities to supplement their agricultural production. It didn't matter. One on one, the typical Gaul probably COULD beat the typical Roman legionary, but operating as a group, the legionaries would routinely beat the Gauls in battle thanks to MUCH better unit cohesion and drill. A group of modern people in the armed forces versus a group of legionaries is a false comparison, because it's all about how they have trained, and what they are going to wind up doing. If they are using modern equipment and techniques, the moderns win. If forced to use equipment and techniques the legionaries are familiar with, they win. The size of the individual people in the battle is just not that big of a factor compared to proper training, discipline, experience and unit cohesion.
 

bz249

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People constantly underestimated the Romans because they were individually on the smallish side. This happened in Gaul, where the barbarian celts grew to what we would consider 'normal' size thanks to better nutrition caused by lower population densities, and ready access to hunting opportunities to supplement their agricultural production. It didn't matter. One on one, the typical Gaul probably COULD beat the typical Roman legionary, but operating as a group, the legionaries would routinely beat the Gauls in battle thanks to MUCH better unit cohesion and drill. A group of modern people in the armed forces versus a group of legionaries is a false comparison, because it's all about how they have trained, and what they are going to wind up doing. If they are using modern equipment and techniques, the moderns win. If forced to use equipment and techniques the legionaries are familiar with, they win. The size of the individual people in the battle is just not that big of a factor compared to proper training, discipline, experience and unit cohesion.

The Romans typically suffered crushing defeats with everyone killed... but they send another legion to be killed... then another and finally they grinded through to victory. They were the Red Army of their times. Their enemies run out of swords before the Romans run out of legionaries. ;)
 

sleeperul

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8-10 years into 20 year service for the younger veterans. No young and fresh by any means but certainly not yet beyond physical effectiveness. Many of the legionaries may have been fresh/green but there would have been a good smattering of experienced veterans to show them the ropes.

It is possible that the legions the Crassus led were all freshly raised, we have no information about them in the sources, but it seems likely that they were fairly veteran. There was a large number of ex-legionaries suffering from poverty at this point in time and I assume they would have been easy to recruit for any new legions raised. Certainly, the actual military performance of legionaries on the occasions they came to grips with the Parthians, was good, and the Parthians admired the bravery of the legionaries (at least according to Roman sources), saving their contempt for Crassus.
But the Parthians that fought Crassus where they not the veterans who took over the empire of that greek dude that ruled the area?
 

Denkt

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Where those veterans quite old and past their prime quite past their prime?
You can be quite effective even if you are 40 years old as the combat at roman times was mostly about techniques, like that is why for example Mayweather have been able to dominate Younger people without much trouble because it is the same in boxing.

The Romans typically suffered crushing defeats with everyone killed... but they send another legion to be killed... then another and finally they grinded through to victory. They were the Red Army of their times. Their enemies run out of swords before the Romans run out of legionaries. ;)
There is many cases in which romans managed to win one sided victories and wars tended to end in their favors.

One on one, the typical Gaul probably COULD beat the typical Roman legionary, but operating as a group, the legionaries would routinely beat the Gauls in battle thanks to MUCH better unit cohesion and drill.
Im pretty sure even 1 vs 1 the legionary would likely have the advantage but the difference would be much smaller than you go formation against formations.
 

Kovax

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The Romans typically suffered crushing defeats with everyone killed... but they send another legion to be killed... then another and finally they grinded through to victory. They were the Red Army of their times. Their enemies run out of swords before the Romans run out of legionaries. ;)
Rarely, if ever true. Their win/loss record is pretty average for most of Rome's history, nowhere near a case of "sending another legion to be killed". The majority of battles which were lost ended up with them running away or falling back to a nearby fortified field camp, often covered by a small number of die-hard Triarii or other aging veterans who were willing to sacrifice themselves to save the rest of the army. Some routers were likely run down by cavalry or pursued to exhaustion by the victorious infantry, but far from all. In most other cases aside from Rome in that timeframe, a defeated army would take years to replace the weapons and armor (especially time consuming items such as chain mail), even if the manpower were available to reform the army. In Rome's case, they were able to rebound quickly, recruiting, rearming, and fielding fresh army after army (often from the remnants of the last one). It wasn't just a matter of throwing warm bodies at the enemy, it was a robust economic system and a faith in the city itself that allowed for recovery even in the most dire situations. Even the one army "totally destroyed" by Hannibal had survivors, and many of the men who were captured were released after being humiliated and beaten ("running the gauntlet"), but returned to Rome minus equipment.

They were not even remotely close to being the "Red Army" of their day: Egypt might have been closer to that, with minimally armored and lightly armed troops fielded in volume, but even they eventually formed an "imitation Legion" of better-equipped troops. Rome had both the production capacity and the manpower to replace losses, and mostly decent quality troops, but the leadership was too frequently based on political favors and voter popularity, not on merit.
 
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Graf Zeppelin

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People constantly underestimated the Romans because they were individually on the smallish side. This happened in Gaul, where the barbarian celts grew to what we would consider 'normal' size thanks to better nutrition caused by lower population densities, and ready access to hunting opportunities to supplement their agricultural production. It didn't matter. One on one, the typical Gaul probably COULD beat the typical Roman legionary, but operating as a group, the legionaries would routinely beat the Gauls in battle thanks to MUCH better unit cohesion and drill. A group of modern people in the armed forces versus a group of legionaries is a false comparison, because it's all about how they have trained, and what they are going to wind up doing. If they are using modern equipment and techniques, the moderns win. If forced to use equipment and techniques the legionaries are familiar with, they win. The size of the individual people in the battle is just not that big of a factor compared to proper training, discipline, experience and unit cohesion.
Yes yes yes I am fully aware of that. What I said is that people in antiquity around 10AD been not smaller than people in the modern age untill the 40s-50s on average.
Yes yes Celts and Germans been taller than Romans I know and I said it also.

I am not even going into this modern soldier vs legionary nonsense.

But we roughly know how tall people been in this age. People in Egypt around 1,66, Indians around 1,72, Romans around 1,68 Celts around 1,74 and so on.

So no, unit cohesion or melee its all irrelevant. I made a sole statement about AVERAGE size of people without any conclusions.

I am not interestet in this discussion about modern armies vs romans or how representative Beverly Hills would be as an archeological site.Nor that a Roman city isnt representative about Romans.
 
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bz249

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Rarely, if ever true. Their win/loss record is pretty average for most of Rome's history, nowhere near a case of "sending another legion to be killed". The majority of battles which were lost ended up with them running away or falling back to a nearby fortified field camp, often covered by a small number of die-hard Triarii or other aging veterans who were willing to sacrifice themselves to save the rest of the army. Some routers were likely run down by cavalry or pursued to exhaustion by the victorious infantry, but far from all. In most other cases aside from Rome in that timeframe, a defeated army would take years to replace the weapons and armor (especially time consuming items such as chain mail), even if the manpower were available to reform the army. In Rome's case, they were able to rebound quickly, recruiting, rearming, and fielding fresh army after army (often from the remnants of the last one). It wasn't just a matter of throwing warm bodies at the enemy, it was a robust economic system and a faith in the city itself that allowed for recovery even in the most dire situations. Even the one army "totally destroyed" by Hannibal had survivors, and many of the men who were captured were released after being humiliated and beaten ("running the gauntlet"), but returned to Rome minus equipment.

They were not even remotely close to being the "Red Army" of their day: Egypt might have been closer to that, with minimally armored and lightly armed troops fielded in volume, but even they eventually formed an "imitation Legion" of better-equipped troops. Rome had both the production capacity and the manpower to replace losses, and mostly decent quality troops, but the leadership was too frequently based on political favors and voter popularity, not on merit.

I did not say they were Zergs :)

Exactly their ability to rebound quickly, recruiting, rearming, and fielding fresh army after army (often from the remnants of the last one) made them pretty much like the Red Army. Decently equipped and trained soldiers with high motivation, while the military and political leadership was roboust enough to sustain losses which would cripple other empires (the other potential candidate of constantly pulling a new wave of recruits after catastrophic defeats would be the Wehrmacht, but they lost in the end unlike the Romans who won most of their wars despite starting badly).

Edit: in the matters of military organization the Romans are not that far away from modern nation states...
 

icedt729

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The peasant revolts in China that kept winning and winning taking dynasty after dynasty and replacing them being replaced by another peasant rebellion.
Let's talk about the Chinese examples.

Although peasant revolts are a recurring event in Chinese history and they could critically weaken a dynasty, no agrarian revolt ever succeeded in building a new regime. Liu Bang and Zhu Yuanzhang were peasants, but they were warlords leading armies incorporating all ranks and social classes. Liu Bang rode to prominence on top of the general revolt of both commoners and aristocrats against a hated Qin regime already shaken by bloody succession struggles at court. Zhu Yuanzhang likewise made a name for himself in the China-wide revolt against the Mongol Yuan. So while we have two emperors of peasant origins, they did not win their thrones solely or even mainly through peasant support.

Even then, there were numerous agrarian rebellions in Chinese history that didn't establish a new dynasty, but which critically weakened the existing one by ruining its economy and administration and undermining the regime's legitimacy. When the reigning dynasty had a policy of widespread military service, like the Qin, Western Han or Tang did, then they had large forces at their disposal to handle rebellions but the rebels also had access to large pools of trained and armed manpower, making them more dangerous. For dynasties that had smaller and more specialized militaries, like the Eastern Han, Yuan or Ming, the state forces had limited manpower and even if the quality of rebel troops may have been lower, the dynasty's forces could easily become overstretched trying to contain them.

So, for example, the Qin dynasty practiced mass conscription and launched numerous large-scale military campaigns over their wars of unification and then their 14 years as emperors. This meant they had large standing forces on hand, but a very large portion of the general population had military training and even real combat experience, allowing rebels like Xiang Yu and Liu Bang to build true armies quickly. During the famous Yellow Turban rebellion, the ruling Eastern Han dynasty had long since abolished conscription and relied on a small, professional army of tribal allies, convicts, and mercenaries stationed on the empire's northern frontiers. This meant that although the Yellow Turban forces were initially mostly rabble, there were critically few Han soldiers with which to fight them (not helped at all by factional violence between generals, eunuchs and imperial clansmen) and regional officials had to raise militias of their own to manage the crisis (meaning both rebel and Han forces were, in the early stages of the rebellion, generally pretty low quality).
 

Geriander

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Let's talk about the Chinese examples.

Although peasant revolts are a recurring event in Chinese history and they could critically weaken a dynasty, no agrarian revolt ever succeeded in building a new regime. Liu Bang and Zhu Yuanzhang were peasants, but they were warlords leading armies incorporating all ranks and social classes. Liu Bang rode to prominence on top of the general revolt of both commoners and aristocrats against a hated Qin regime already shaken by bloody succession struggles at court. Zhu Yuanzhang likewise made a name for himself in the China-wide revolt against the Mongol Yuan. So while we have two emperors of peasant origins, they did not win their thrones solely or even mainly through peasant support.
That the aristocrats would be willing to follow a warlord, and later emperor, from peasant origins is the more surprising aspect from a western perspective. Was there less emphasis on superior birth in China compared to Europe?