What AI really lacks for a proper war campaign is to see the value of strategic objects

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Droiyan7

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Jan 27, 2020
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What could you expect by watching 2 AI empires with similar power engaging war on each other? You may list some things, but anything dramatic hardly happens in the current version of Stellaris.

They just waste time by orbital bombarding each other's planets (especially the capital planet) and imagining the guerrilla fleets; and often do nothing more than that for several decades until forced white peace by maxed war fatigue.

This happens very often, especially when multiple empires, not allies or federations, attack one empire. This is because every individual war only calculates the war score and fatigue level individually.

Why this still so messy? Because the reworking the AI Dev Diary #172 talked about failed? Nope, it works fine just as Dev said. It just making AI properly works needs a lot more works than that.


What AI really lacks right now is that it doesn't have the concept of a "core asset" that must be kept or occupied even at the expense of damage.

The current AI war minister is so dependent on the probability of winning for each fleet engaging that it cannot act in response even if the core planet is exposed to enemy orbital bombarding and so the empire is on the verge of perishing. They just set goals for the fleet to win battles, not war.


So, introducing the concept of "core asset" can help improve the situation. "Core assets" refer to the most important assets that support the power of the Empire. For example, colonies with high resource output or stellar bases in charge of shipyards.

Occupying or defending these assets is more important than winning or losing a simple individual fleet battle. Therefore, in order to accomplish this, it will be possible to assemble all the fleets of the empire and aim for a desperate shot against the dominant enemy fleet.


Conversely, losing control of "core assets" is a devastating loss to the empire, so the willingness to continue war also needs to properly calculate the damage, increase willingness to surrender or actively attempting peace negotiations to achieve white peace ASAP*.

*Yep, this is another core cause of the mess. AI hardly attempt peace negotiations to achieve white peace.


This will solve the phenomenon that the AI Empire refuses to surrender even though all stellar systems and colonies are occupied in one war, and meaninglessly endures until forced white peace, or complete annihilation by world cracker brought by the player who is so fed up with the boring fixation of war*, just because only a few stellar systems or colonies were taken over by other empires that had waged war on their own.

*This is not a mental or ethical issue for players. It's just a natural result of bad design.

P.S: Benchmarking well-made MODs like Aggressive Crisis Engine, More AI Personalities, War Name Variety - UPDATED might help.

You may think More AI Personalities or War Name Variety is not much related, but AI personalities can deeply affect how they see something as a "core asset" or not. With similar logic, contemplating 'what war is' (What is the proper name for the war) for each war can affect how important each "core asset" is in that war.
 
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On the contrary, winning a war is almost entirely dependent on keeping your fleet alive. If you lose your fleet then your opponent can just grab all those systems anyway at their leisure. Yes, the AI does make mistakes in not properly defending valuable assets, but unless you have enough alloys in the bank to fully rebuild your fleet, and multiple shipyards so you can get that fleet out quickly, keeping your fleet alive is more important than any asset.
 
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On the contrary, winning a war is almost entirely dependent on keeping your fleet alive. If you lose your fleet then your opponent can just grab all those systems anyway at their leisure. Yes, the AI does make mistakes in not properly defending valuable assets, but unless you have enough alloys in the bank to fully rebuild your fleet, and multiple shipyards so you can get that fleet out quickly, keeping your fleet alive is more important than any asset.
Keeping alive for what? It's NOT talking about what a player or AlphaGo should do. In such a situation, what percentage of the actual chances of winning a war for AI by saving fleets alive? It's completely meaningless!

Without having enough alloys in the bank to rebuild fleets, and multiple shipyards to do quickly, the war is lost even before the declaration. A player or AlphaGo may try to reverse it, but you can't really believe AI of a PC game can make a meaningful chance to actually do that. So, what the hell is the meaning of just keeping alive fleets decades for nothing but forced white peace by maxed war fatigue?

“Victorious warriors win first and then go to war, while defeated warriors go to war first and then seek to win” - Sun Tzu, The Art of War -


Didn't we already saw enough complaints about AI's keep meaningless war between them, blocking diplomatic channels everywhere? (by bug reports, suggestions, MODs, and even our own personal experience)

It's NOT talking about how to make AI win a war. If it IS what you want, there are so many much better ways to implement it than just meaninglessly keeping fleets alive. It about AI should end the war that is already lost!
 
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Keeping alive for what? It's NOT talking about what a player or AlphaGo should do. In such a situation, what percentage of the actual chances of winning a war for AI by saving fleets alive? It's completely meaningless!

Without having enough alloys in the bank to rebuild fleets, and multiple shipyards to do quickly, the war is lost even before the declaration. A player or AlphaGo may try to reverse it, but you can't really believe AI of a PC game can make a meaningful chance to actually do that. So, what the hell is the meaning of just keeping alive fleets decades for nothing but forced white peace by maxed war fatigue?

“Victorious warriors win first and then go to war, while defeated warriors go to war first and then seek to win” - Sun Tzu, The Art of War -


Didn't we already saw enough complaints about AI's keep meaningless war between them, blocking diplomatic channels everywhere? (by bug reports, suggestions, MODs, and even our own personal experience)

It's NOT talking about how to make AI win a war. If it IS what you want, there are so many much better ways to implement it than just meaninglessly keeping fleets alive. It about AI should end the war that is already lost!

I agree that the current way Stellaris warfare works has problems. However since this is a thread about the AI, and not about changing warfare, I'm going to focus on the current system, not the way it theoretically should be working.

"It's NOT talking about how to make AI win a war." Shouldn't the AI be trying to win wars? If not, what else would it be doing in a war? I'm honestly confused by this statement.

"Without having enough alloys in the bank to rebuild fleets, and multiple shipyards to do quickly, the war is lost even before the declaration." If I have 100k ships but no shipyards and no net alloys, I'll win against someone who can only support a fleet of 1k ships no matter how many alloys they have. Obviously that's a contrived scenario that would never happen in game, but if you have an existing fleet you don't need a massive amount of stockpiled alloys or shipyards. It's only when you lose most of your fleet in a battle that those things are essential.

Imagine this situation. the AI has a 7k fleet. It's being invaded by a player with a 10k fleet. The player attacks a planet that is marked as a core asset. The AI fleet rushes to defend! And since the 7k fleet is less than the 10k fleet, it is promptly beaten and the planet is lost anyway. Rushing to defend core assets with inferior fleets won't do anything to save them, maybe delay it by a month or two but that's meaningless. Where as if that 7k fleet had stayed above a 5k starbase, the 10k fleet would have likely lost if it tried to attack. As such, keeping the fleet alive means that starbase, and potentially others the fleet could move to reinforce, won't be captured (or if they are, it's with a fleet engagement much more in the AI's favor.

Also, keeping a fleet alive is important even after the war. If you lose your fleet in a war and several planets, then you have less economy to try and build up a new fleet. If you lose your fleet but keep all your planets planets, you might be attacked from someone else before you have the chance to build another one, and so end up losing the next war by committing too much to the current one.
 
Imagine this situation. the AI has a 7k fleet. It's being invaded by a player with a 10k fleet. The player attacks a planet that is marked as a core asset. The AI fleet rushes to defend! And since the 7k fleet is less than the 10k fleet, it is promptly beaten and the planet is lost anyway. Rushing to defend core assets with inferior fleets won't do anything to save them, maybe delay it by a month or two but that's meaningless. Where as if that 7k fleet had stayed above a 5k starbase, the 10k fleet would have likely lost if it tried to attack. As such, keeping the fleet alive means that starbase, and potentially others the fleet could move to reinforce, won't be captured (or if they are, it's with a fleet engagement much more in the AI's favor.

Also, keeping a fleet alive is important even after the war. If you lose your fleet in a war and several planets, then you have less economy to try and build up a new fleet. If you lose your fleet but keep all your planets planets, you might be attacked from someone else before you have the chance to build another one, and so end up losing the next war by committing too much to the current one.
That's a pragmatic approach, but depending on the AI empire type they may not act that rationally.
Having their homeworld attacked by a devouring swarm ought to make most sentient species act desperately, for example.
 
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That's a pragmatic approach, but depending on the AI empire type they may not act that rationally.
Having their homeworld attacked by a devouring swarm ought to make most sentient species act desperately, for example.
AIs are already bad enough without coding in intentional flaws. What the actual problem here is that Stellaris war mechanics makes it so that keeping your fleet alive at the cost of planets is the right move, that the home world's only bonus besides being a planet is +30% habitability. Rather than just making the AI bad, make the game such that the actual political/war consequences for these actions makes the desired action the right one to take.