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Zagys

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Originally posted by Michael James
There was a thread a while back asking who "really" won and I think the general answer was England. I want to be able to change that, not just work towards being able to move from #3 to #1 in the "reality" version of events. I want to be able to "win" as Switzerland or Tuscany.

I strongly disagree with you here. If it is possible to get to first place as Switzerland or Tuscany, then the game will be far too easy when playing any of the larger powers. The game should reflect what was historically possible, not be a "Super Risk" type of game.
 

unmerged(4522)

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Concerning 'cultural differentiation',

The game's tech tree is very western-european-centric. If in EU2 we will be able to play any country, including exotics, then there will absolutely have to be different tech trees!
Zulus did not have tercios or cavalry!
I do not think that as the Zulus, you should be allowed to have tercios or cavalry. If you want such techs, why play the zulus anyway? The fun would be beating up on neighboring tribes with your regiments of well-disciplined spearmen and overwhelming small English detachments from time to time.

As I see it, there should be several cultural zones:
This example is for land tech, but should apply for all other aspects of tech development.

1) Western Europe: Already well-known, but should allow for country-specific techs, like Spanish Tercios, English/Welsh longbowmen,
2) Eastern Europe: Heavy on cav tactics, using tabors, somewhat backwards on artillery, introduced arquebusier/musketeers later, limited use of pikemen.
3) India/Afghanistan, etc: Used massed bowmen formations, elephants, and lots and lots of light cavalry. Muskets introduced late and were largely ineffective. Artillery used primarily for sieges. Sometimes used elephants.
4) China: Huge armies of spearmen/billmen/crossbowmen. Used artillery early but ineffectively. Arquebus introduced late. Cavalry role dimminished over time.
5) Americas: Purely infantry armies, until the horse changed the life of the plains indians. Even by 1820 though, horses and muskets were very very rare.
6) Arabs (should include N.Africa, but not Turkey): Mameluke-style warfare. Mostly foot/horse archers. Artillery nonexistant. Muskets very rare even by 1820.
7) Turkey: Very advanced early, but fell behind by 1700. Here is an example of a country that saw their advantage slip away and tried to catch up in the 18th century - unsuccessfully. Why? Not because they did not want to? Turkish military traditions were rooted in their caste system and their society, not in some war manual. Every leader who tried to change this was met with stiff opposition and eventuall assasination, something beyond the scope of the game, which is why I strongly disagree of being able to change everything about your country ( to make Tuscany win, etc.)
Finally 8) Africa: Very backward, mainly because of political fragmentation (fighting each other). Although some African tribes had guns as early as 1500, they did not possess enough to equip units with them, but used them in skirmish roles. It was not until after Idaslawhana (Sp?) that the Zulus had enough muskets to form a small unit of them to cause some havoc at Rorke's Drift.

Tell me that these cultures can be represented with the same tech tree! They can not!
 

Zagys

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Originally posted by bartman
Concerning 'cultural differentiation',

The game's tech tree is very western-european-centric. If in EU2 we will be able to play any country, including exotics, then there will absolutely have to be different tech trees!
Zulus did not have tercios or cavalry!
I do not think that as the Zulus, you should be allowed to have tercios or cavalry. If you want such techs, why play the zulus anyway? The fun would be beating up on neighboring tribes with your regiments of well-disciplined spearmen and overwhelming small English detachments from time to time.

As I see it, there should be several cultural zones:
This example is for land tech, but should apply for all other aspects of tech development.

1) Western Europe: Already well-known, but should allow for country-specific techs, like Spanish Tercios, English/Welsh longbowmen,
2) Eastern Europe: Heavy on cav tactics, using tabors, somewhat backwards on artillery, introduced arquebusier/musketeers later, limited use of pikemen.
3) India/Afghanistan, etc: Used massed bowmen formations, elephants, and lots and lots of light cavalry. Muskets introduced late and were largely ineffective. Artillery used primarily for sieges. Sometimes used elephants.
4) China: Huge armies of spearmen/billmen/crossbowmen. Used artillery early but ineffectively. Arquebus introduced late. Cavalry role dimminished over time.
5) Americas: Purely infantry armies, until the horse changed the life of the plains indians. Even by 1820 though, horses and muskets were very very rare.
6) Arabs (should include N.Africa, but not Turkey): Mameluke-style warfare. Mostly foot/horse archers. Artillery nonexistant. Muskets very rare even by 1820.
7) Turkey: Very advanced early, but fell behind by 1700. Here is an example of a country that saw their advantage slip away and tried to catch up in the 18th century - unsuccessfully. Why? Not because they did not want to? Turkish military traditions were rooted in their caste system and their society, not in some war manual. Every leader who tried to change this was met with stiff opposition and eventuall assasination, something beyond the scope of the game, which is why I strongly disagree of being able to change everything about your country ( to make Tuscany win, etc.)
Finally 8) Africa: Very backward, mainly because of political fragmentation (fighting each other). Although some African tribes had guns as early as 1500, they did not possess enough to equip units with them, but used them in skirmish roles. It was not until after Idaslawhana (Sp?) that the Zulus had enough muskets to form a small unit of them to cause some havoc at Rorke's Drift.

Tell me that these cultures can be represented with the same tech tree! They can not!




I agree with you completely.
 

Sidney

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Fucntionally there is no difference at the level of EU between Zulu impis and Iroquois. You might have had to use different tactics but at the strategic level it is guys with muskets vs guys with spears. I'm not sure that a zulu tech tree is meanigful. In general, the exotics should not be able to gain "european" teks. If the Cherokee are playable then they should not really have a tek tree (anyone who can list all the big advances in Cherokee warfare from 1500-1800 can share them with me) and should continue to be hampered by a total lack of tek advances- short of some edited scenario. I don't want to find seminoles with grapeshot on 1600.
 

unmerged(3856)

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Pscycho V

Civ (clones at least) is still on my hard drive and gets played from time to time. EU does not. I am totally burned out on it and am tired of 'just more of the same'. Unless I get some pretty significant new elements of game play I am not sure that I will be very interested. Playing games is, of course, a pretty personal affair. The overwhelming majority of Real Time games are an abomination for me. EU is one of the few I play.

PS the lead up here is great, should try it some time.
 

PSYCHO V

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To my Northern Cousin Lou Wigman

Originally posted by Lou Wigman
Playing games is, of course, a pretty personal affair

Yup ..see your point, personal preference.

Originally posted by Lou Wigman
PS the lead up here is great, should try it some time.

Re-reading my post .. it was a little more confrontational than intended :D .. glad you took it with good cheer. One mans 'blasphemy' is merely another's choice .... I would do well to remind myself of the ideals of tolerance I so often espouse ! :)

Hail Paradox !
 

unmerged(2238)

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There's a near identical thread started by bartman up here in the EU2 gen. discussion board. My thoughts are in there. Briefly, however, I think that VPs need to be more scalable. I'd like to be able to win with Switzerland. But not in a "win" in the way that you do in EU1, meaning having taken over most of the European continent. I'd like to be rewarded for deft diplomacy, economic success, strength as an ally, in relation to the size and strength of the country I'm using. I'd like to see Tuscany win a game where they've conquered, maybe only 2 or 3 provinces, but they've played such a stellar game otherwise, in relation to their resources, that they've "won" in VPs. I'm not sure how you create such a system, but I think it is badly needed and would be very interesting and gratifying. It would also fit very well into the balance of power ideal of this game.
 
M

Mowers

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Lots of points.

Personally I liked Micheal James and John Keats main posts on historical paths. I think that Zagys misunderstood what he was saying somewhat. They are saying quite the opposite of a super risk/ CIV concept which is what most of us are against.

Some interesting points have been raised on cultural diversity but I'vm not convinced of the implementation.