What about the jews?

[unmerged(36763)]

One of the reasons Victoria failed IMHO where EU excelled, was that it took fine-grained information and applied it to coarse-grained game rules. Whether one pop in Danzig were Polish clerks German factory workers made relatively little difference to grand scheme of things, and rather than feeling like a ruler, too much of the game could have been renamed Sim Factory Administration. In the end, the worthless minutia became tedious and wasn't interesting enough to fight through the grossly imbalanced economic system.

Unfortunately, many of the suggestions in this forum, particularly with requests such as the OP of this thread, looks to repeat fine grained historic detail for the sake of it, ignoring, except for some mild historic flavour, any practical influence such a suggestion would have on the game. Unless there's some specific issue that governing Salonika might present if I played the Ottomans, what could cause me to care less about the ethnicity of a city within a province?

The game should feel like juggling on a tightrope while neighbours throw rocks at you, the tension from making broad based policy decisions and detailed military excursions. Any issue which wouldn't make it onto page 1 of a fictional priority item list for a supreme executive during the period, is at best a waste of time, and at worst a distracting attempt at creating busy-work because the overall game doesn't retain a players interest.

I love complexity, and I would relish a meaty manual of information to rummage through before being able to decipher the game, but complexity must add value, otherwise it's simply excess baggage.

Sorry to pick on this thread/idea, but having skimmed through a half dozen contentious threads, including 10+pages on the injustice of PTI, I sincerely hope that Paradox are actively avoiding any of the suggestions in this forum lest one of the greatest games ever made turns it's third iteration into an unplayable camel.

Ok, that may or may not be true, but leaving that aside for the the moment, exactly what would be the negative result or results of the idea proposed in this thread? Your rant here is not without a lot of merit, but I don't really think it addresses the issue. You could just as well ask "Why does province X have this or that religion/culture?" or "Why have religion/culture at all?".

 

[Emre Yigit]

This is a great post that everyone here should read and keep in mind when discussing EU3.

Yes, but...... EU is the game that gave us Canarian as a culture. Its not as though we are proposing an added level of complexity here. But I do agree with the SimFactory comparison. LOL!

 

[Dinsdale]

Ok, that may or may not be true, but leaving that aside for the the moment, exactly what would be the negative result or results of the idea proposed in this thread? Your rant here is not without a lot of merit, but I don't really think it addresses the issue. You could just as well ask "Why does province X have this or that religion/culture?" or "Why have religion/culture at all?".

Well I certainly did not mean it to sound like a rant, and I don't think it reads like one.

The problem I have with this particular suggestion is that it adds nothing to the game, but requires a new culture, the addition of that culture to the empires which could conceivably be expected to govern the province, and possibly events to deal with expulsion or culture change.

Culture in EU2 was a broad based concept, otherwise there are good arguements made that the different Gaelic cultures should each have their own, and not one generic, that English culture should be split into southern english and northern english...etc etc etc.

As we approach an infinitely fine-grained approach to cultures and religion, we begin to add layers of information which are irrelevant to playing the game. When the Ottomans hold Salonika, does the possible ethnicity of a city make a difference to them? Would it make a difference to the Austrians or Russians if they hold it? Is there a mechanism in place which deals with this? If not, is the difference a practical effect which would be noticed by the King?

When the questions are answered, adding culture for the sake of it becomes decorative. So we add Jewish culture to Salonika, then add Jewish culture to the Ottoman Empire to handle it. Practical change: none. Difference to person playing the game:none.

 

[unmerged(485)]

....................................


So we add Jewish culture to Salonika, then add Jewish culture to the Ottoman Empire to handle it. Practical change: none. Difference to person playing the game:none.

Until Venice owns Salonika and does not have Jewish culturte as a state culture. Then there is a difference.

Having said that little nit pick, I agree that a finer granularity in most respects is not what is needed. In fact, using Victoria as an example, the finer granularity only added frustration where it did not fit into the big picture or perform properly. The finer the granularity the more difficult it is to properly "sum it up to the whole."

 

[lordofthemark]

Ok, Im Jewish, may I chime in? Ive played several games of Eu2, and im a Vickie newbie.


1. In general, it didnt bother me that the Jews were left out of EU2. The big theme of Jewish history, is that Jews largely "exited history" (in the conventional, politically centered view of what history is) after the Bar Kohkba revolt, and didnt reenter till the 19th century. Anything that misleads about that, shows a false lesson in Jewish history.

2. IF EU were a game about courtiers, or about POPs, then of course the Jews should be in. I assume however, that EU3 will be more similar to EU2 in that regard.

3. Most of the important ways that Jewish history interacted with general history in this period can be modeled through events. There already is an expulsion from Spain event, IIRC. I think a Cossack 1690s pogrom event, and a Cromwell/Dutch welcome the Jews event could work well. I havent played AGC-EEP - i assume they have more Jewish events

4. I am aware that the CITY of Salonika had a Jewish majority, and honor the Jerusalem of the Balkans. But I very much doubt that any reasonable EU PROVINCE centered on Salonika would have one. Id be open to demographic arguments, however.

5. Id also be interested in the situation in Gondar, Ethiopia. I never really dealt with that area in any of my games

6. The importance of Jewish culture, IF Salonika prov was determined to have a Jewish majority, would be that it would be easier for the OE to rule than any other power. OTOH the same thing could be accomplished in game terms by giving it a Turkish majority. Unless a non-Ottoman Turkish state survives, which we would not want to give such an advantage to. I would lean towards a post-1492 event contingent on expulsion from Spain - "The Jerusalem of the Balkans 'Spain has expelled its jews, and they have come to Salonika and built up its commercial importance' Change culture in Salonika to TURKISH, add pop, add building, etc"

 

[unmerged(36763)]

Well I certainly did not mean it to sound like a rant, and I don't think it reads like one.

No worries, by rant I just mean any lengthy, and opinonated post.

The problem I have with this particular suggestion is that it adds nothing to the game, but requires a new culture, the addition of that culture to the empires which could conceivably be expected to govern the province, and possibly events to deal with expulsion or culture change.

Well, concievably, the addition of that culture or religion could make playing the country in which it appears more challenging, as well as true to history.

Culture in EU2 was a broad based concept, otherwise there are good arguements made that the different Gaelic cultures should each have their own, and not one generic, that English culture should be split into southern english and northern english...etc etc etc.

Alright, but Jews would have been a lot more different than Turks than parts of England were to each other.

As we approach an infinitely fine-grained approach to cultures and religion, we begin to add layers of information which are irrelevant to playing the game. When the Ottomans hold Salonika, does the possible ethnicity of a city make a difference to them? Would it make a difference to the Austrians or Russians if they hold it? Is there a mechanism in place which deals with this?

Doesn't it make that province more prone to instability, and generally less efficient?

 

[Dinsdale]

Until Venice owns Salonika and does not have Jewish culturte as a state culture. Then there is a difference.

No, in beta, a 30 page discussion on the merits of each potential owner of Salonika, their probable action toward the jews, and a chain of events for each nation is created and put into the game.... After release, an identical, but contrary discussion erupts on the subject claiming that the events are wrong, need tweaking and a sub-discussion on why so much effort went into Salonika while Krain is still the wrong shape and Ukraine not phonetically spelt out in cyrillic

------------

Well, concievably, the addition of that culture or religion could make playing the country in which it appears more challenging, as well as true to history

Apparently not though. Provided Salonika remains in Turk hands nothing changes, if someone else takes it, then no doubt an expulsion would take place. In neither case is there any more challenge, or does the detail add any strategic component.

Alright, but Jews would have been a lot more different than Turks than parts of England were to each other.

Well not according to what has been written in the thread. Apparently a Jewish Salonika would be a loyal province within the Ottoman realm. Several English monarchs faced difficulties with the North of England which in EU has been abstracted down to religion, but could be argued was really a continuation of the North/South differences in culture.

Doesn't it make that province more prone to instability, and generally less efficient?

Well no, there has been no suggestion that Salonika would be any different at all with Jewish culture, that's rather the point of why adding cultures which don't change anything is IMHO, a fairly lengthy and time consuming method of adding irrelevant information to the game.

 

[Laur]

In answer to the argument that "EU world is all about the cities" and that the provinces should have the culture of the ethnic majority of the cities, if that were true, then most of the East European provinces should have German culture as the Saxon and Schwabian burghers constituted the majority of the urban population of most of the important cities during the time-span of the game.
I somewhat agree with the argument that the Jews 'exited' history until the 19th century, and that they were mostly an isolated but visible minority, vulnerable target to mass hysteria. Thus, I would encourage this forum to focus on those Jewish individuals that left their mark on history, and which could be ilustrated by events and flavours, rather than continue this debate on a culture and religion that was regarded as alien at best by the rest of the populace/rulers.

Laur

 

[unmerged(485)]

..........................................

Provided Salonika remains in Turk hands nothing changes, if someone else takes it, then no doubt an expulsion would take place. In neither case is there any more challenge, or does the detail add any strategic component.


.......................

Why would an expulsion take place? Only an event could bring this about. And without it Venice (or any other country without Jewish state religion) would have a more difficult time with Salonika than the Ottomans with Jewish state culture.

 

[Emre Yigit]

The big theme of Jewish history, is that Jews largely "exited history" (in the conventional, politically centered view of what history is) after the Bar Kohkba revolt, and didnt reenter till the 19th century. Anything that misleads about that, shows a false lesson in Jewish history.

Let's see.... you live in the States, hence 30:1 you're Ashkenazi? No-one's saying the Jews rose to political eminence. But as one of the three main Ottoman millets, the şmpact on the empire culturally and economically was profound.
The reason I'm banging the Jewish Salonica drum so hard is not because the data prove without a shadow of a doubt that Salonica province had a plurality of Jews (though they do suggest it) but because the OE without the Jews (from 1500 right up to 1922) would have been a quite different sort of place. That, I think, suggests that you statement about exiting history is hyperbole. (Also hyperbole elsewhere). And, if there is to be a Jewish culture province somewhere, I personally cannot think of a better place than, as you said, the Jerusalem of the Balkans, the centre of late Byzantine Jewry, to which city Jews emigrated not merely from Spain but from all over Europe.

Nor do I think that it detracts anything from the game. It does not increase its complexity. So why all the fuss, guys.

 

[Enravota]

So why all the fuss, guys.

'Cause city provs are non existent in EU, it sets a precedent of favouring city pops over villager pops in rural setting and Jewish influence could as well be represented via events . I fail to see why one city's population (though a large and importan city, I'll agree to that), should e the dominant factor in a big rural provice? Don't you feel it kind of odd to have the EUII province of Macedonia Jewish, even a little? There are other places with dominant Jewish, Armenian or Turkish city pops all over the Balkans, but that does not mean that there should be Armenian prov in the Balkans or something. IF we get the same cultures' system in EUIII as in EUII (which is most probable from the screens I've seen so far), you'll either get a whole lot of micro provinces or disregard of some parts of the population of a province is dissregarded. And although we are talking about Jews and Balkan Jews in particular, no body mentions other simmilar peoples i.e. the Vlachs (not those in Romania, those south of the Danube) - they were almost in evry province, but you cannot represent them in any way except events. And i think that Ottoman Jews can be best represented by event chains rather than some odd province culture change and another bonus OE culture. I hope you find this post more argumentative than "laughable".

 

[aussieboy]

For goodness sake, guys, in EU2 we're talking about a map which places the Ottoman capital in 1419-1453 in Bursa coz there's not enough room, apparently, for a mini-province for Constantinople. So, I really don't know for certain whether the EU "province of Macedonia" had a Jewish, Turkish, Greek, Bulgarian or Hindu majority. I'm just stating that where there are census records they point to a Jewish plurality from the early 16th century onwards. Moreover, looking at devshirme records, the incidence of recruitment from "Macedonia" is not so high as to suggest that Christians formed the overwhelming bulk of the population there - in the villages. Nor do tax surveys of non-moslem minorities. I think everyone will grant that the Ottomans - at least initially - did a fairly thorough job of taxing and recruiting. Does anyone who doesn't like my explanation / suggestion have anything to back them up? Say, archival or (even) baptismal records?

Moreover, remember that EU is essentially about cities, not villages. Correct me if I'm wrong, but you didn't see many Vauban-style fortifications, governors' offices, tax offices, etc in villages. So essentially, this "the Jews were outnumbered by the population in the villages" is a red herring, even if true - which I do not concede.

And the next time you're in Istanbul, take a detour to the Imperial Archives. If they let you in, you can probably find how many sheep or goats your great-greatx18 grandfather possessed, what the production of textiles by his female relatives was, and whether he had any relatives in the civil service, his access to drinking water and how much he paid in taxes and how much he was assumed to hide. Think Domesday Book on a massively more detailed scale, and you may begin to grasp the detail of the archives. An empire covering 18 modern countries in full, plus substantial chunks of at least 5 other countries, did not run itself on luck or lack of attention to these important (!) things.

Or, you can laugh, but, then, without comparable records, what else could you do?

Constantinople in EU2 is part of Thrace province. And the Ottoman capital, IIRC, was in Bursa pre 1453.

 

[Tunch Khan]

Constantinople in EU2 is part of Thrace province. And the Ottoman capital, IIRC, was in Bursa pre 1453.

Ottoman capital in EUII starting date was Adrianople (Edirne) in Europe, which didn't exist in EUII.

 

[Hyzhenhok]

I think we should have an alien culture.

Isn't that what this thread is asking for?

 

[Dinsdale]

Why would an expulsion take place? Only an event could bring this about. And without it Venice (or any other country without Jewish state religion) would have a more difficult time with Salonika than the Ottomans with Jewish state culture.

I should imagine a slew of events would be necessary to take care of the fairly reasonable idea that a jewish culture province in Salonika would be no more a problem than any other region of Europe where jews were either persecuted to leave, or lived without noticable friction.

Leaving a single province in all Europe, where jewish culture was an obstacle seems to be fairly ridiculous to me.

 

[unmerged(485)]

..........................

Leaving a single province in all Europe, where jewish culture was an obstacle seems to be fairly ridiculous to me.

I agree. What I was pointing out was that your statement about giving Salonika Jewish culture and giving The Ottomans Jewish state culture made no difference in game play was not necessarily correct because there is more to consider than Salonika and the Ottomans.

 

[Tunch Khan]

... where jewish culture was an obstacle ...

He he he, this didn't sound good.

 

[Dinsdale]

I agree. What I was pointing out was that your statement about giving Salonika Jewish culture and giving The Ottomans Jewish state culture made no difference in game play was not necessarily correct because there is more to consider than Salonika and the Ottomans.

Which is rather the point. A whole bunch of data is added to essentially have Salonika behave like any other province in the area without Jewish culture.

 

[Emre Yigit]

Constantinople in EU2 is part of Thrace province. And the Ottoman capital, IIRC, was in Bursa pre 1453.

Adrianople from 1365.

Which is rather the point. A whole bunch of data is added to essentially have Salonika behave like any other province in the area without Jewish culture.

Unless Spain, say, takes the province...

Leaving a single province in all Europe, where jewish culture was an obstacle seems to be fairly ridiculous to me.

Isn't the whole point in the obstacle part?

 

[_Curieus_]

The Jews who fled from Spain brought relatively little capital - coz they couldn't - but their knowledge and know-how did much to enhance the economic and social life of the OE. So much so, that this Turk feels they simply must be included in EU3 as the plurality religion of Salonika province, for which there is anyway ample proof.

This could be an event. And a similar later when spain "acquired" Portugal which caused another mass exodus. In this case many also went north. (for ex. towards the Republic of the Seven United Netherlands), where their trade contacts were appreciated.