Westernizing as Russia

[herrmarisa]

My current Russia is among the first countries in the world in terms of technology. I didn't do anything specific for this, just researched technologies when they were available while sometimes keeping points for national ideas. So far I've managed to build everything I need, have huge income, have my NIs advanced quite well and the ahead of time level of technologies. With all this, how do I even westernize? Soon Eastern units will become terrible compared to Western ones and I fear I'll have to artificially lag in technology to achieve this.

 

[Draecesstra]

eastern units never get "terrible". all tech group units are with 1.8 nearly the same, they just peak at other stages. no need to westernize as eastern tech group, only if u want to protectorate or for trading companys.

Westernization doesnt give you western units, thats long gone and with 1.8. you dont need them anyways

 

[unmerged(652342)]

I fear I'll have to artificially lag in technology to achieve this.

- yep, with current tech groups/"westernization" design, you indeed need to artificially fall behind western nations in tech when playing as ottoman or eastern tech country if you want to westernize.

Westernization doesnt give you western units, thats long gone and with 1.8. you dont need them anyways

- difference now is literally between 1 and 2 pips.

 

[herrmarisa]

eastern units never get "terrible". all tech group units are with 1.8 nearly the same, they just peak at other stages. no need to westernize as eastern tech group, only if u want to protectorate or for trading companys.

Westernization doesnt give you western units, thats long gone and with 1.8. you dont need them anyways

If I remember correctly, the "Mass Infantry" (what's this?) have 4 points in each battle modifier for attack while Western Units have like 5-6. That's a pretty big difference.

 

[panionios]

Do westernize, but in the beginning (around 1520-1530). You'll be saving tons of monarch points (I think someone estimated them around 14400 IIRC).

Units are equivalent.

 

[unmerged(652342)]

If I remember correctly, the "Mass Infantry" (what's this?) have 4 points in each battle modifier for attack while Western Units have like 5-6. That's a pretty big difference.

- nope, now difference between western, eastern and ROTW units is literally between 1-2 pips. I wonder were now all those people who flamed and insulted me, when i created thread about disproportional unit strength between different tech groups after EU4 was released.

 

[Freudia]

Eastern tech doesn't need to westernize anyways, especially a nation with a tech cost reduction in their NIs.

 

[oblio-]

While super, super late game you will have a minor disadvantage compared to Western tech countries, Eastern tech armies are just slightly behind (2 pips total at level 30, that's about 1800).
Just get military idea groups for quality: Offensive, Aristocratic, Quality, and you should be able to fight on almost equal terms to anyone. Use military policies when possible, get the +Discipline advisor when available.
And by that point no one in the world will match your numbers

 

[DicRoNero]

- nope, now difference between western, eastern and ROTW units is literally between 1-2 pips. I wonder were now all those people who flamed and insulted me, when i created thread about disproportional unit strength between different tech groups after EU4 was released.

Well, it was a 2-pip difference between "Mass Infantry" and Nap Square back when it was first rebalanced; now it's 1.

But given how there are less units in Eastern tech group and Western ones get updated faster, there still is no such a thing as "peaking in different time periods". At least in this case. We might get some 50 years (give or take) with better units; for the rest 300 western ones are ahead for the abovementioned reason. Hence I still prefer the old model of getting western units once you fully westernize.

 

[Freudia]

Well, it was a 2-pip difference between "Mass Infantry" and Nap Square in 1.7; now it's 1.

But given how there are less units in Eastern tech group and Western ones get updated faster, there still is no such a thing as "peaking in different time periods". At least in this case. We might get some 50 years (give or take) with better units; for the rest 300 western ones are ahead for the abovementioned reason. Hence I still prefer the old model of getting western units once you fully westernize.

But it is not large enough for it to actually matter; you're Russia, Eastern is only very slightly worse than Western, and you have a larger army than any two European majors combined, probably.

 

[herrmarisa]

But it is not large enough for it to actually matter; you're Russia, Eastern is only very slightly worse than Western, and you have a larger army than any two European majors combined, probably.

Well, at least they don't force me to pretend my units are cold-resistant anymore. Just braindeads who breed like rabbits, like I said before D:

 

[unmerged(652342)]

But it is not large enough for it to actually matter; you're Russia, Eastern is only very slightly worse than Western, and you have a larger army than any two European majors combined, probably.

- a) Russia is not the only eastern tech country. b) tell this to France, up until Russia gets its NI's ambition France usually have by far largest MP in the world.

 

[oblio-]

Well, it was a 2-pip difference between "Mass Infantry" and Nap Square back when it was first rebalanced; now it's 1.

But given how there are less units in Eastern tech group and Western ones get updated faster, there still is no such a thing as "peaking in different time periods". At least in this case. We might get some 50 years (give or take) with better units; for the rest 300 western ones are ahead for the abovementioned reason. Hence I still prefer the old model of getting western units once you fully westernize.

If I'm reading this right, Eastern is ahead of Western until level 15. I don't know the exact year for tech 15, but it's definitely not 50 years between that date and 1444
And from what I see in the cavalry section, Eastern cavalry is better or much better for quite a while. At some point it has 3 extra pips over the Western one.
(Source: http://www.eu4wiki.com/Land_units)

- a) Russia is not the only eastern tech country. b) tell this to France, up until Russia gets its NI's ambition France usually have by far largest MP in the world.

Well, France did have like 2x the population of any single rival in the game's period. If anything Russia should trade some quantity ideas for quality since at the time its population was relatively low.

 

[DicRoNero]

But it is not large enough for it to actually matter; you're Russia, Eastern is only very slightly worse than Western, and you have a larger army than any two European majors combined, probably.

It matters cause I want my country to have the best stuff available at each category. Nothing separately is large enough to matter, but when things get combined, they work wonders.

Besides, the devs are yet to come with reasonable explanation to why they decided to make nations keep their initial unit type in the first place. This provides no flavor whatsoever and with pips now being put even closer together and some saying they are essentially the same you might as well make that final step and equalize them thoroughly; oh wait, that will just give us our earned western units back >.<

If I'm reading this right, Eastern is ahead of Western until level 15. I don't know the exact year for tech 15, but it's definitely not 50 years between that date and 1444

Yeah, thanks for reminding me of this; I'm fairly certain this tab didn't look like that back when I checked it out last time.

btw: Soldaty Infantry :rofl: :rofl:

 

[TheMeInTeam]

It matters cause I want my country to have the best stuff available at each category. Nothing separately is large enough to matter, but when things get combined, they work wonders.

Besides, the devs are yet to come with reasonable explanation to why they decided to make nations keep their initial unit type in the first place. This provides no flavor whatsoever and with pips now being put even closer together and some saying they are essentially the same you might as well make that final step and equalize them thoroughly; oh wait, that will just give us our earned western units back >.<

I do agree that given the units interact the exact same way, at this point the difference is somewhat academic. Especially for Eastern, however, the "worse units" is a pretty hefty phantom element. Even last patch with supposedly the worst tech 30 troops in Muslim it was really easy to wreck face in Europe even w/o NIs boosting military quality, and in MP making that kind of headway isn't realistic with the hugboxing + dominance of navies (which are identical to every nation).

At this point, it's more a design attempt (and a weak one at that) to give some of the native areas a small chance to fight back maybe. For example sub-Saharan pips are the same at tech 2 as western at tech 5. Of course, that becomes completely irrelevant when you introduce one tactics difference, but w/e.

Mid-late game battles will virtually always be decided by generals, terrain, tactics. The unit pip variance is indeed nearly irrelevant, so westernizing is for tech cost + trade companies only...probably not worth it for Russia.

 

[unmerged(652342)]

Well, at least they don't force me to pretend my units are cold-resistant anymore. Just braindeads who breed like rabbits, like I said before D:

- how so? Large MP bonuses are still the only real MOS/RUS military strengths. Russia NI's still look like designed for rabbit people(+75%MP; +10%MP recovery speed) from space (-10% tech).

If I'm reading this right, Eastern is ahead of Western until level 15. I don't know the exact year for tech 15, but it's definitely not 50 years between that date and 1444
And from what I see in the cavalry section, Eastern cavalry is better or much better for quite a while. At some point it has 3 extra pips over the Western one.
(Source: http://www.eu4wiki.com/Land_units)

- at least hussaria now have some chance

Well, France did have like 2x the population of any single rival in the game's period. If anything Russia should trade some quantity ideas for quality since at the time its population was relatively low.

- Russia's population growth boomed only by the end of 18 century.

 

[herrmarisa]

btw: Soldaty Infantry :rofl: :rofl:

We could also have a similar cavalry type, something like Konnitsa Cavalry or Kavaleriya Cavalry

 

[unmerged(652342)]

btw: Soldaty Infantry :rofl: :rofl:

- yep Also i would want to now how Pdx justified that eastern infantry units are now better than western ones up until level 19 mil tech, considering that their description states that they are copies of western units.:rofl:

 

[nicechinos]

Mid-late game battles will virtually always be decided by generals, terrain, tactics.

....and reinforcemnts, ideas and policies. With rebalanced policies it's quite easy to be almost at the same level as Sweden but with a much higher MP pool.

 

[durvas]

With countries westernizing all over the place, would your vassalization be hindered that much? You could be the Johnny Appleseed of westernization, taking provinces here and there to allow countries to westernizeoff of them. Of course, you would be sure to get vassals to feed from the biggest countries first so you don't miss out on Zhou, Shun, etc. Will the game remember a country westernizing so you don't release them as a protectorate? Will countries that never existed always be protectorates?