Westernizing as an Eastern Nation without exploration

[Stategem161803]

Specifically, I'm looking to try a mongol khanate game soon and I want to westernize pretty early (1520 ish). I do not want to waste an idea group on exploration though. I do intend my second idea group to be expansion.

My current plan is to try to chain military access through to morocco, get fleet basing rights, and plant a colony next to morocco where the Iberians will inevitably be. Will the TI around morocco be revealed by then? What can I do to speed up the process?

 

[durvas]

Will the TI around morocco be revealed by then?

I doubt it. TI discoveries seem to be lower now, especially around territory you don't own. In my Current Ottomans game, I have 4 new provinces shown total since the beginning of the game and it's already 1545.

 

[grisamentum]

Yeah, I have had to explore Moscow to conquer it for Sultan of Rum.

OP, you probably don't want to go to Morocco. Better to go to the Crimea and settle next to Genoa's bases there.

 

[ashalpha]

I played through a Mongol Khanate game twice. Once exactly as you tried to do and once with Exploration. Both times unless I discovered the province myself I did not get many discoveries (perhaps 3 or 4 both relatively close by 1600). The first attempt ended as a OPM still an Oirat Horde vassal (though the government was reformed to Chinese) and the second as a global power. The extra colonists and the speed you develop them to full productive cities is just crucial unless you happen to beat the Oirat Horde and their Tibet allies early and then manage to avoid getting trampled by Manchu and Ming to get large.

 

[Stategem161803]

I played through a Mongol Khanate game twice. Once exactly as you tried to do and once with Exploration. Both times unless I discovered the province myself I did not get many discoveries (perhaps 3 or 4 both relatively close by 1600). The first attempt ended as a OPM still an Oirat Horde vassal (though the government was reformed to Chinese) and the second as a global power. The extra colonists and the speed you develop them to full productive cities is just crucial unless you happen to beat the Oirat Horde and their Tibet allies early and then manage to avoid getting trampled by Manchu and Ming to get large.

Are you talking about colonizing Siberia more quickly? My concern with exploration mainly centers around getting a conquistador to explore the ti around morocco. I'm hesitant to try for Crimea because I'd have to conquer all the way over there and be powerful enough to defeat Crimea and her allies. I'm worried that would push my timeline too far back.

I'm not particularly worried about my neighbors as MK. I've already played a few short test games to get a feel for how I want to go and I've had no problem obliterating oriat and Manchu armies with scorched earth. Ming has never DOW me.

 

[grisamentum]

Isn't Mongol Khanate a horde, anyway? You can't westernize until you reform the government so you have to finish an Idea group (Admin/Econ/something) before you can westernize as a horde. Doesn't seem practical to do that AND westernize by 1520.

Moreover once you reform the government you'll be upgraded in tech group.

 

[Novacat]

Yup, the earliest practical date to reform and westernize as a horde would be 1600.

 

[Stategem161803]

Yup, the earliest practical date to reform and westernize as a horde would be 1600.

You're telling me I can't finish my first idea group before 1600? I was planning on going innovative and being otherwise very stingy with admin points.

3(average decent ruler)+3(base)-1(horde) =5 adm per month with no advisor

5*12 = 60 per year

Roughly 20 years to admin tech 4
Roughly 50 years to fill innovative

This puts me at 1444+70 = 1514. So maybe 1520 is a little ambitious because I will inevitably need to raise stability and core things, but 1520 could be doable with some luck and willingness to ride out low stability. Certainly by 1550 if I'm really focusing on it.

I should note, I don't mean fully westernized by 1520. I mean beginning westernization by 1520.

 

[Novacat]

This puts me at 1444+70 = 1514. So maybe 1520 is a little ambitious because I will inevitably need to raise stability and core things, but 1520 could be doable with some luck and willingness to ride out low stability. Certainly by 1550 if I'm really focusing on it.

1550 is doable, I was running the calculations in my head with Timurids whom start with 1/1/1 leader and 1/1/1 heir.

 

[grisamentum]

You're telling me I can't finish my first idea group before 1600? I was planning on going innovative and being otherwise very stingy with admin points.

3(average decent ruler)+3(base)-1(horde) =5 adm per month with no advisor

5*12 = 60 per year

Roughly 20 years to admin tech 4
Roughly 50 years to fill innovative

This puts me at 1444+70 = 1514. So maybe 1520 is a little ambitious because I will inevitably need to raise stability and core things, but 1520 could be doable with some luck and willingness to ride out low stability. Certainly by 1550 if I'm really focusing on it.

I should note, I don't mean fully westernized by 1520. I mean beginning westernization by 1520.

No, 1520 is absurd. Remember you have to be at +3 stability to start westernizing anyway. There is no "riding out" low stability because you have to add it back up to +3 no matter what.

Innovative is a questionable choice for quickly westernizing as horde, btw. Innovative has an Idea group event for -1 stability but nothing for +stability, and only a +50 admin event.

Econ is probably the best choice because it has a +1 stab event and +100 and +50 admin events and no -stab events.

Admin is ok because it has a +1 stab event and also a -1 stab event (but no +admin events).

 

[Stategem161803]

Alrighty then. I don't really like Econ, but I guess what you're saying makes sense.

Still nobody has answered my question. Surely among these esteemed experts somebody can tell me whether or not it's a viable strategy to not take exploration.

 

[Novacat]

Probably not viable right now because of Muscovy pissing in the Asian cereal. Might be viable in 1.4, though, since I doubt the current balance status quo will remain.

 

[Stategem161803]

Probably not viable right now because of Muscovy pissing in the Asian cereal. Might be viable in 1.4, though, since I doubt the current balance status quo will remain.

Ok. The natural next question becomes east or west? Africa or America to find a European colony?

My instinct would be west.

 

[grisamentum]

West is better sooner; the distances are shorter although it takes more colonies to get around to West Africa. Later going East will be easier as the longer distances are less of a problem and you can probably cross over with a Mexico/Panama province that borders both oceans.

However I still think going straight to Muscovy might be better. Your horde cavalry can stomp Eastern troops until miltech 10 (ideal year 1531). If you could get to them when they were still on tech 9 you could probably cripple them and then even if they hit 10 after that you could probably still beat them. Administrative would be the group choice here for the mercenary spam against Muscovy. After that you can get next to Sweden/Denmark to westernize.

 

[Stategem161803]

West is better sooner; the distances are shorter although it takes more colonies to get around to West Africa. Later going East will be easier as the longer distances are less of a problem and you can probably cross over with a Mexico/Panama province that borders both oceans.

However I still think going straight to Muscovy might be better. Your horde cavalry can stomp Eastern troops until miltech 10 (ideal year 1531). If you could get to them when they were still on tech 9 you could probably cripple them and then even if they hit 10 after that you could probably still beat them. Administrative would be the group choice here for the mercenary spam against Muscovy. After that you can get next to Sweden/Denmark to westernize.

Great Scott! That's a fantastic idea! I don't know why that never occurred to me. And I wouldn't be forced to take exploration.

Even with admin, mercs are still more expensive than regular troops. I should have plenty of manpower by the time I reach Muscovy. Would Econ not be better due to aforementioned positive events?

 

[Novacat]

Admin has cheaper coring.

 

[grisamentum]

Great Scott! That's a fantastic idea! I don't know why that never occurred to me. And I wouldn't be forced to take exploration.

Even with admin, mercs are still more expensive than regular troops. I should have plenty of manpower by the time I reach Muscovy. Would Econ not be better due to aforementioned positive events?

You should have good manpower, sure, but since you are racing to beat the clock you want to avoid downtime waiting for manpower if possible. Econ has the best random events, yeah, but the cheaper coring on Admin is helpful too, and the random events are still better than Innovative. I haven't done this myself so I could see it going either way, and ultimately Innovative has better ideas than either group. It might just boil down to tolerance for risk. As Novacat mentioned the cheaper coring is great since it's going to save you adm points (and thus time), probably a few hundred before you get over to Moscow.

I'm not sure but I still think Exploration is a good idea for tech 4, mostly because it'll give you a bunch of free land in Siberia really early. I'm also curious how you're beating Oirat Horde to get free.

 

[Stategem161803]

I'm also curious how you're beating Oirat Horde to get free.

Well I spent about 10 hours in total playing the first 5-10 years with different strategies. After you spend some time fighting multiple superior foes, you learn to get creative. In summary, I used scorched earth. I tell you what, play a few times as Mongol khanate, learn to use scorched earth properly (baiting and trapping for example), and you will feel invincible when you play other countries. Still not set on what my strategy will be once I start a proper game, but winning wars will not be a problem. Manpower and stability early will be the greatest challenges. Not to mention pacing.

I've never played a horde before so I guess I'll have to learn to manage horde AE as well.

 

[ashalpha]

Manchu will declare war on you within the first 50 years probably twice and will drag Ming along with them even if Oirat Horde is your overlord. If you are free this will be more often since in both playthroughs I had they just love to declare for Xilin Gol.

Really curious how you will play that out as I was never able to in my first playthrough. If Oirat Horde is weak their ally Tibet is not, when you declare Independence Manchu usually declares conquest war immediately (maybe during a five year truce immediately after a war?). So at least 3 large stacks probably more with only 5 cities. Not a lot of room to maneuver.

If you are planning to conquer West remember you are Buddhist and a Horde. The overextension and Religious rebellion penalties are really bad for a Horde, I really don't think you will have as much manpower as you think. Looking forward to your attempt, will definitely follow to see your strats.

 

[Stategem161803]

Manchu will declare war on you within the first 50 years probably twice and will drag Ming along with them even if Oirat Horde is your overlord. If you are free this will be more often since in both playthroughs I had they just love to declare for Xilin Gol.

Really curious how you will play that out as I was never able to in my first playthrough. If Oirat Horde is weak their ally Tibet is not, when you declare Independence Manchu usually declares conquest war immediately (maybe during a five year truce immediately after a war?). So at least 3 large stacks probably more with only 5 cities. Not a lot of room to maneuver.

If you are planning to conquer West remember you are Buddhist and a Horde. The overextension and Religious rebellion penalties are really bad for a Horde, I really don't think you will have as much manpower as you think. Looking forward to your attempt, will definitely follow to see your strats.

Manchu DOWing me is so predictable I swear it's hard coded. What sucks is sometimes the oriats will DOW Uzbek or chatagi before Manchu attacks. That would be a restart. I definitely don 't want to fight Manchu and the oriats at the same time. I've tried a few times, and been annexed the same number of times.

If Manchu DOW oriats when at peace however...

Manpower will indeed be a issue. Ming will not. They will love me, ally me and then never do anything when I call them to arms or I will destroy them.

Buddhist is not the best religion in EU4. I'm sure some of my most zealous subjects will convince me to embrace Islam.

I will take exploration and see how that works out.

Hopefully it doesn't take 20 restarts like my Byzantium game lol. I am rather OCD. I won't proceed with the game proper until my strategy is perfect....which will hopefully happen sometime this weekend.