Westernization: Too easy to start in MP! (game balance issue #127432948 ...)

[grumphie]

like said, multiplayer problem - multiplayer is already full of exploits and gameyness as it is. if you fear asian countires become too strong, relay this to your european rivals/friends, and try to get an arrangement over not helping them westernise - unless they specifically ally, they should have nothing to gain by an large asian western country.

if they DO ally, why should it be restricted? its not like its an gigantic exploit - if an asian country DID get help and the liek from an western country, why shouldnt they be able to westernise? just gather some firends who dont want that happening, and attack, and preven tit from happening.

 

[Schleisen]

How did you manage to decide that this was a game balance issue? Not even close in my opinion. There is not even a issue here. You just have to put some rules/restrictions before playing with others, if you don't like this type of situations.

 

[The-King]

New rule :
- can't sell to someone provinces that lie outside of their colonial range.

Fixes the exploit, without introducing any undesirable side effects.
In fact, I'd argue it should have been that way from the beginning.

If we're talking multiplayer (and we are), then that is easy to get around. Just ask for fleet basing rights...

 

[aitaituo]

New rule :
- can't sell to someone provinces that lie outside of their colonial range.

Fixes the exploit, without introducing any undesirable side effects.
In fact, I'd argue it should have been that way from the beginning.

This wouldn't work. Buy fleet basing rights, exploit away. I assume that's necessary anyway, since I don't see how else the province would be within coring range.

If there is a way to work around it, MPers are going to work around it. If you seal it off entirely, you're punishing single players when all that's needed is house rules/self control/proactive other players.

 

[Captain Frye]

EU4 multiplayer cannot be balanced. It's not a chess game. And even a chess game is not fully balanced, since the white pieces make first move.

However, house rules can turn a multiplayer game in to a more fun experience.

Westernization is nor easy nor hard. It's just an annoying waiting game(aproximately 20 years of sitting on your hands). While I think westernization should be FUN. Yes, it should not be easy, but it should be fun(it should be like a mini game).

 

[Al. I. Cuza]

House rules, done.

 

[DarkThug]

Westernization is nor easy nor hard. It's just an annoying waiting game(aproximately 20 years of sitting on your hands). While I think westernization should be FUN. Yes, it should not be easy, but it should be fun(it should be like a mini game).

You meant........like whack-a-mole mini game in EU3 ??

 

[Beefpiston]

You meant........like whack-a-mole mini game in EU3 ??

Oh god, no. *runs away screaming*

 

[Musthavename]

Just to offer the opinion of someone who's played in the MP game the OP mentioned (not on a permanent basis, but as a sub every few sessions), I'd just like to point out that the OP was playing Spain, and got angry that the Ming player suddenly in the late 1500s annexed the Aztecs while he wasn't looking, then proceeded to attack his lands there. I'm not sure why they weren't annexed earlier, especially as the game had been running 1.2 for a couple of weeks and they were a conquest free of AE/OE. I would also note that every European player completely ignored Asia until 1600. The Ming player in the game was quite inefficient with regards to westernising in that he did it very late in my view, plus nobody made any attempt to stop the powers involved at the time, despite everyone knowing this was going on.

Besides, it's easy enough to westernise without even doing a province selling trick. Exploration, fleet basing rights and the ability to core lands manually mean it's very quick for Europeans and Asians to meet, especially in the lands in Africa. It's not out of the question for players to have borders with each other before 1500.

 

[DDRJake]

The real cheesy multiplayers get a friend to declare war on them while they westernise so they can enjoy the -5 global RR for "national defense" in all cored correct-culture provinces.

 

[Leninade]

Again I would like to point out that my France is not at fault for this. I got my America/Caribbean. And I'm about to catch up with Ming income wise, I already beat his army. If anything that seems a bit underpowered of Ming, that a colonial France can still give them a run for their money owning all of Asia and whatnot.

 

[KevinG]

Other Asian countries can't do **** to major Euro powers even with early westernization, the only country OP is complaining about is Ming. A simple solution would be to add more asian players and/or don't give ming access rights and declare war on anyone who does. Or alternatively don't let Aztecs survive until 1600 as Castille.

 

[ahuitzotl]

I've tried to Westernize as Ming in MP and it was very difficult with smart, hostile players! I had to adjust my strategy to go for a late Westernization and didn't even manage to do it. So I don't know what the OP is talking about, I'm thinking the issue is based on one freak occurrence and now how things normally go.

Obviously, if 2 friends play together, one friend can help the other exploit the game. Friend A can play as Castille while friend B picks France; A can let B diploannex him and become superfrance. A-Muscovy and sell his provinces to B-Novgorod. etc. Obviously a friend can also help Ming westernize faster than it could. This doesn't mean Ming is necessarily overpowered.

For Ming, just getting a Western core neighbor is not that easy at all. It takes a while before anyone can reach you, and bringing them to China is fraught with danger. Once they come they will want more in the area, first the nearby islands, then the Chinese coast. (again, maybe not if it's your friend .. but friends can make any ridiculous situation possible with any countries)

Then, when you Westernize, you are extremely vulnerable. This might force you to take Religious ideas for the stability during Westernization, when Innovative would help you tech up a lot faster post-Westernization.

Players were afraid of me trying to Westernize as Ming in my game, or they just didn't want to spend any resources helping me. The only country that "offered to help" was player Muscovy/Russia, who colonized through Siberia by 1540 to cut me off, raised his army to 100k in the same timeframe and started "politely" asking for my Western provinces. Obviously he was going to attack me as soon as I started Westernizing; sadly the game only lasted to the 1560's.

Muscovy also didn't have better technology than me because he was so focused on expanding to cut me off. I even got cannons before him, which just meant that I was going to have to postpone westernization further. And I definitely would have been at a huge tech disadvantage vis-a-vis Western Europe once I was done. If they noticed I was Westernizing the obvious thing for them to do would be make a landgrab for eastern China.

 

[ringhloth]

The real cheesy multiplayers get a friend to declare war on them while they westernise so they can enjoy the -5 global RR for "national defense" in all cored correct-culture provinces.

Cored correct culture provinces are unlikely to revolt in the first place while westernizing. Almost all of your revolts will come from non-accepted cultures and wrong religions.

 

[Darkath]

Cored correct culture provinces are unlikely to revolt in the first place while westernizing. Almost all of your revolts will come from non-accepted cultures and wrong religions.

Actually most of the revolts will come from events, and get spammed by them even if your NRR is negative in the first place.

 

[ringhloth]

Actually most of the revolts will come from events, and get spammed by them even if your NRR is negative in the first place.

In which case the added -RR risk is irrelevant, so my point still stands.

 

[DDRJake]

Cored correct culture provinces are unlikely to revolt in the first place while westernizing. Almost all of your revolts will come from non-accepted cultures and wrong religions.

My empire was mostly same religion same-cultured, but sitting at -3 stability with 0 - 30 legitimacy for 10+ years with various events adding +RR still stung.

 

[Darkath]

In which case the added -RR risk is irrelevant, so my point still stands.

That was my point

 

[unmerged(80402)]

Lol. Seriously? You are angry because some player in asia roflstomped europe, because of being smarter than players in europe? What's the problem here dude?
There is no real reason to make westernization harder. It is hard anyway, aspecialy with all those events, and stabcost. You can just invade such a westernizing nation, during the process, and it will likely be fatal to him. If you are not smart enough to realize, that leaving ONE PLAYER in asia is bad idea for an MP game, then it is realy your problem.

EDIT: Ussualy in MP games i played, if there were any nations in asia, there was requirement there to be at least 2 nations there. Ming was ussualy disallowed, unless there was a lot of other nations in asia. Just put someone in dai viet, manchu, japan and brunei, plus a player or two in india, also, you can add timur player, and you will have perfect balance for asia.

I think best set to get some balance in asia, would be to have following nations :
Manchu or Korea
Vijayangar(or nation in the area)
Bengal(or nation in the area)
Dai Viet(or nation in the area)
Tibet(or nation in the area - including hordes)
Timurid(or nation in the area, including ak-koyunlu etc.)
Malayan nation
Japanese nation
Ming should be rarely allowed - only if asia is full of players, who would be likely to make instant coalition against it.
Propably, actualy there could be place for one more nation anywhere in asia, thou it would certainly make it crowded(i think about additional nation in india to make it more balances).

Rest players, should be in europe. Thou it would make quite a big game.