Westernization: Too easy to start in MP! (game balance issue #127432948 ...)

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IZob

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Requirements

Starting the westernization process requires the following conditions be met:

One of the country's core provinces must be next to a western tech group neighbor's core provinces.
One such neighbor must be at least 8 tech levels ahead (summed across all three tech types).
+3 stability.

These requirements are too easy to fulfill, especially in Multiplayer. This has a significant effect on the balance of the game, especially when strong nations like Ming, Japan, Timurids, etc westernize before Europeans/Muslims arrive in the same area.

How does an powerful Asian nation (from the Middle east, all the way to Japan) that has westernized early, effect the balance of the game?

Player distribution in multiplayer games is never quite balanced. Most players like to start in Europe thus there is more competition and greater difficulty to expand there. For an Asian western power however, there is little competition because of the lack of human players that start in Asia. The solo player can defeat the low tech AI and once westernized become a formidable threat to European forces once the two groups make contact. It is more likely then, that if the Asian nation can westernize early enough, they can become part of the western group that colonises land over seas, or annex land that is usually held by some other power. It does not thrill me to see Asians colonising America, or having the same land tech as European land powers like France before the 1600's.

Regarding the core:

What is stopping one player from trading provinces with another? Relations and distances have no effect, so long as you can see the nation on the map (capitals will reveal themselves when you first make contact). Selling provinces is no problem what so ever, if both players are able and willing.

What is stopping a low tech nation from creating a vassal out of said province, later annexing the vassal, thus potentially gaining a core next to a western nation? There is no limit to this kind of diplomatic action, all you need is positive relations (which isn't too hard to get) and to make sure you are not at war. It's possible some new players may not be aware of this and/or others are ok with this action, because they have a pact or deal with the westernizing nation.

Even by traditional means of spreading cores, reaching new land (around Africa), for a European nation it is not hard to reach Asia. It can be done relatively quickly and easily, even faster with co operation. Sometimes however it isn't so easy, if the colonial Europeans are often in conflict/different ideas/CB's/technology/Money on other resources. But this does not stop nations from trading provinces with each other, releasing a vassal and coring them.

Other requirements:

The stability requirement is trivial, since the nation in question will not be spending many ADM pp's on technology before westernizing. Being 8 tech levels behind is also not difficult either.

As a European, exploration is still a considerable challenge, due to the difficulty of attrition. However all that is required to solve this is fleet access->good relations.


In summary, westernization is way to easy to start. It is effecting MP games thus requiring a consensus about new rules. For some games this is already too late and players have already fallen victim to a rising power of the East, (because they were unaware of the consequences). That is not fun. I personally feel like this part of the game was tested (because it does work as designed) but they didn't test how fairly the mechanic would work. For instance, why is it harder for the Ottomans to westernise, but easier for some other Chines nation because the chines tech is lower? Isn't is more logical and realistic that the Ottoman Empire who trades and neighbors Europeans all over, would westernize earlier because their technology is higher?

PARADOX PLEASE FIX

If anyone would like to add more to this, I am happy to edit this post. Please feel free to comment.
 

Talq

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How much of this is an ignorant player problem or a house ruleable problem in co-op?

Because if the problem is province trades, and European players work out trading a province to Ming is a game-loser, surely they won't do it?
 

The-King

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How much of this is an ignorant player problem or a house ruleable problem in co-op?

Because if the problem is province trades, and European players work out trading a province to Ming is a game-loser, surely they won't do it?
For a small european nation, Ming can be quite convincing ($$$).

I hope paradox doesn't do anything, Ming was one of the most powerful nations on the planet and in the hands of a human it SHOULD be able to dominate if the player wishes. I mean the problem is more that 'the player lives in 2013 and thus knows what the world looks like' rather then Ming is too strong because Ming was too strong.
 

Illanair

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That's one of those things you're just going to have to live with.
 

aitaituo

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That's one of those things you're just going to have to live with.

This. The requirements are entirely reasonable if you don't have two humans gaming the system. You can not balance a complex game for both single player and multiplayer perfectly.
 

Darkath

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If you play in MP it's usually best to have either no players in asia, or at least 2, because a lone player will grow way too strong and will surely be bored to death by the time he can be involved in europe.



This happened in my current MP game when Brandenburg accepted to "buy" a province in hindia, helping both Moghol and Hindustan westernize, in exchange for free access to colonize malaysia and much money.

Westernized Moghol is quite a huge issue, but there's hindustan preventing him to get all of Asia.

We don't play with any house rules but we trust each other not to use blatant exploits. We allowed this to see how it will turn out, but if it's too OP we'll create new rules to prevent abuse.
 

IZob

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This sounds like a problem you should fix between keyboard and chair, not in the code.
I agree, but if its in code as well, the system is much more robust.

Darkath
If you play in MP it's usually best to have either no players in asia, or at least 2, because a lone player will grow way too strong and will surely be bored to death by the time he can be involved in europe.

This happened in my current MP game when Brandenburg accepted to "buy" a province in hindia, helping both Moghol and Hindustan westernize, in exchange for free access to colonize malaysia and much money.

Westernized Moghol is quite a huge issue, but there's hindustan preventing him to get all of Asia.

We don't play with any house rules but we trust each other not to use blatant exploits. We allowed this to see how it will turn out, but if it's too OP we'll create new rules to prevent abuse.
In my experience, more then 2 players are required in Asia if one of one of those players are going to westernise via gamey means. For example: Ming and Vija on their own isn't an even battle, Ming is better off most of the time. And if you have a Mughals player its likely India isn't shaping up too well.
This. The requirements are entirely reasonable if you don't have two humans gaming the system. You can not balance a complex game for both single player and multiplayer perfectly.
The requirements are entirely reasonable IN sp. I see no reason why they cannot make it work properly for sp and MP.
 

Darkath

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In my experience, more then 2 players are required in Asia if one of one of those players are going to westernise via gamey means. For example: Ming and Vija on their own isn't an even battle, Ming is better off most of the time. And if you have a Mughals player its likely India isn't shaping up too well..

You're right, but they can seek out alliances with a Russia or an Ottoman player and balance this out. The point is there is not a single player left to his own device with ALL of asia for him to conquer easily.
 

Illanair

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The requirements are entirely reasonable IN sp. I see no reason why they cannot make it work properly for sp and MP.

Because humans aren't AI. They can game the system in ways the AI could never think up.
 

IZob

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Because humans aren't AI. They can game the system in ways the AI could never think up.
Can't*?

Well the AI is already at a disadvantage because its unlikely to buy or sell provinces; Unlikely going to quickly reach some non western nation to westernize a player.

Humans on the other hand can, so its only a matter of adding restrictions on top of what is already in place. It doesn't have to effect the AI and It wouldn't because how the AI plays the game.

You're right, but they can seek out alliances with a Russia or an Ottoman player and balance this out. The point is there is not a single player left to his own device with ALL of asia for him to conquer easily.

That is the ideal scenario but, its not always guaranteed to work out that way.
 

TehJumpingJawa

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New rule :
- can't sell to someone provinces that lie outside of their colonial range.

Fixes the exploit, without introducing any undesirable side effects.
In fact, I'd argue it should have been that way from the beginning.
 

Rufo

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This seems like a multiplayer problem with a multiplayer solution. If European powers are worried about a powerful nation westernizing early, they could conspire against the European ally. Attack the vassal, destroy the colony. Diplomatic deals between players can shift the historical balance of power. Nations outside Europe are no exception.
 

Darkath

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This seems like a multiplayer problem with a multiplayer solution. If European powers are worried about a powerful nation westernizing early, they could conspire against the European ally. Attack the vassal, destroy the colony. Diplomatic deals between players can shift the historical balance of power. Nations outside Europe are no exception.

I mostly agree with that

However what have been suggested above would work to some extent, would prevent very early game cheese, and would make real sense gameplaywise :

New rule :
- can't sell to someone provinces that lie outside of their colonial range.

Fixes the exploit, without introducing any undesirable side effects.
In fact, I'd argue it should have been that way from the beginning.
 

Illanair

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Can - A human player can game the system in ways the AI cannot (I am repeating myself)

Humans on the other hand can, so its only a matter of adding restrictions on top of what is already in place. It doesn't have to effect the AI and It wouldn't because how the AI plays the game.

Ugh... No thanks. The AI / Human special rule are annoying enough as is. House rules is where it is at. It's not like EU4 is really a game you'd play with complete strangers without a set of rules.
 

IZob

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This seems like a multiplayer problem with a multiplayer solution. If European powers are worried about a powerful nation westernizing early, they could conspire against the European ally. Attack the vassal, destroy the colony. Diplomatic deals between players can shift the historical balance of power. Nations outside Europe are no exception.
What if there is more then one European ally or the European ally is a land power? In other words, a rare circumstance that it involves some land powers that have common interests with the non western nation? If that happened I think that mostly for colonial nations who are not all equipped to face larger land forces, they will not be able to destroy the vassal or remove the province and in the long run would face greater competition from Asia.
 

Nunn45

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Either a "Dont sell provinces out of range" rule or simply European nations conspiring to keep them from gamey westernising as stated previously is all thats needed.

Knowing the game thats sparked this request (being in it and all), Europe couldve easily stopped Ming getting that vassal in Europe or attacked them when they where weak but chose not too. That and Europea can easily get to Asia fairly quickly so a Coloniser wouldve been bought out to plant a nearby colony if this other option wasnt available to Ming.