I still prefer leaving it as an option to get Innovation rather then not, it potentially frees you up to move centralization and if it fails to fire then you at least got an easier time with Culture %.
westernization strategy for a (strong) outsider
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I still prefer leaving it as an option to get Innovation rather then not, it potentially frees you up to move centralization and if it fails to fire then you at least got an easier time with Culture %.
I say that if you cannot westernize, it means you invested too little in land tech, and too much in other techs. Advice on westernizing - become empire before you do, and conquer a province next to tech leader, like holland, ulm, aachen, etc. using holy war, that you get on all infidels.
it does work. playing delhi i sold holland (for 0 gold of course, otherwise it said impossible) a province and was able to westernize. the province even revolted back to me a few years later
took me a few tries though - even for 0 gold the odds stated where "very unlikely".
So, seeing as how we've got a nice thread about westernizing going...
What about Steppe Nomads? I've started up with Kazakh, and while conquering is nice and fun right now I'm aware that there's going to come a day where I'll be boned if I don't Westernize. How would one go about trying to turn one of these backwaters into the technological leader of the world? And without forming the Mughals... I wanna stay Kazakh and not expand down towards India.
What about Steppe Nomads? I've started up with Kazakh, and while conquering is nice and fun right now I'm aware that there's going to come a day where I'll be boned if I don't Westernize. How would one go about trying to turn one of these backwaters into the technological leader of the world? And without forming the Mughals... I wanna stay Kazakh and not expand down towards India.
I did it as the mongol khanate, so I'm sure they're all doable, just start centralization instantly and take patron of the arts for the innovative slider moves
As hordes you have superior armies early on and huge manpower/force limits. Paying for these armies is the big problem though, I had 45 inflation by the time I managed to have a stable economy (Although I got back down to 0 at by the end of the game)
it does work. playing delhi i sold holland (for 0 gold of course, otherwise it said impossible) a province and was able to westernize. the province even revolted back to me a few years later
took me a few tries though - even for 0 gold the odds stated where "very unlikely".
This is good when you see little of europe or when you are far from it anyway. But then, ussualy you suck in tech anyways, so it is not a problem to find a country with tech good enough to help you westernize. And as naval countries tend to dow asians after some time, you can just cede 1 province to them.
For most countries from a non-Western tech group Westernization is rather easy. Fighting Europeans with backward army and navy is dumb tho. Spending couple of years selling a province to one of the tech leaders is better imo. Bar makes nice neighbor, and very often sold province can be taken back by funding rebels.
Innovative can be acquired by few events beside ones triggered by PotA. Sure, it can be moved as well, but often it's not required. Of course, as any event it relies on luck. Playing as Ming with PotA, I got 9 universities and 2 fine arts academies in first century after taking this NI, plus couple of slider moves, so completely westernized and modernized by early 1500s.
As for Iwanow's comment on too little land and too much everything else... Sure, you can inflate yourself as poor Oman and conquer quite a bit, but stronger economy helps with quicker and less destructive expansion, and ships (surprise!) give needed mobility, when FL is 4 times lower than manpower. As Ragusa, your survival depends on luck early on, and quick rush for Naval 7 can be a matter of life and death. And so on. Sheikdom the Mamelukes don't need anything beside Land and bit of Government and Production of course, and doesn't need to worry about Westernization strategy, just get land border with Austria, Castile or Bohemia, and that's easy.
Innovative can be acquired by few events beside ones triggered by PotA. Sure, it can be moved as well, but often it's not required. Of course, as any event it relies on luck. Playing as Ming with PotA, I got 9 universities and 2 fine arts academies in first century after taking this NI, plus couple of slider moves, so completely westernized and modernized by early 1500s.
As for Iwanow's comment on too little land and too much everything else... Sure, you can inflate yourself as poor Oman and conquer quite a bit, but stronger economy helps with quicker and less destructive expansion, and ships (surprise!) give needed mobility, when FL is 4 times lower than manpower. As Ragusa, your survival depends on luck early on, and quick rush for Naval 7 can be a matter of life and death. And so on. Sheikdom the Mamelukes don't need anything beside Land and bit of Government and Production of course, and doesn't need to worry about Westernization strategy, just get land border with Austria, Castile or Bohemia, and that's easy.
Selling provinces to country which does not have coastal province is impossible if it is not bordering province.
I rarely have problems ith that , in fact I find myself behind them even before I get my sliders into place ...
It's just 'very unlikely' for any coastal province of yours, for 0 gp at +200 relations, and 'impossible' for any inland province not bordering theirs.
Few non-Western countries can keep on par with Europeans, but Free Trade gives insane benefits and ensures very large income. Combined with high Inno, required for Westernization, leads to speedy tech progression, very often ahead of time, unless countermeasures are taken.
Its how ive gone through westernisation as everyone except maybe Byzantines due to close borders, its just far easier to sell a poor uncored province to a high tech OPM (such as meckleburg in a Moroccan game), westernise then watch as the province cedes back via rebels or nab it in a war.
Rather then having to conquer your way to border a European nation that may end up being a worse idea then not.
Not everyone wants to play as Poland
It is very unlikely if they do have a coastal province. It is impossible if they don't.
Its how ive gone through westernisation as everyone except maybe Byzantines due to close borders, its just far easier to sell a poor uncored province to a high tech OPM (such as meckleburg in a Moroccan game), westernise then watch as the province cedes back via rebels or nab it in a war.
Rather then having to conquer your way to border a European nation that may end up being a worse idea then not.
Not everyone wants to play as Poland
Well you just need to conquer 1 province. For muslim tech country, or easter tech country it should be easy. For horde country, well, you just conquer until you get to such country, as you simply cannot sell province to any country while being horde. For asian nations you should sell a province or wait westerners to conquer province near you. For African/American nation, you ussualy can only wait for them to colonize near you, as you won't see them until then.
So strategy of selling province to westerners, is only valid when you play as asian nation. Because if you are not, you either can conquer the province near western nation easily(aspecialy as muslim), or cannot contact them until they border you already(as african/american).
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Aye, learning now how to work on Westernizing as a Horde (though teching is painfully slow... doesn't help the Golden Horde embargoed me from Astrakhan, the dicks. Eh, I'll force it back open when they finally show some weakness... still, annoying as its the only CoT worth a damn Kazakh can reach).
I'm thinking the best strategy will be to keep battling my way to, say, Georgia, which is now vassalized by the Golden Horde, so no worries about them getting annihilated anytime soon. Alternatively, I could keep chipping away at the Timurids (amazing how easy they are to beat when you regularly ambush their northern provinces while the Mamluks and the Ottomans wail on them elsewhere) until I reach India... and if needed, I could finish off the Oirat Horde and gain a border with Ming and Manchu... which I'd rather not do, because I'm not sure I really want to spend the rest of the game regularly backpedaling east through scorched land until enough Chinese starve to death that I can hit their doomstacks. But the Oirat Horde's suck may not allow me to avoid that.
Conquering to a hight tech country unless you are are already close is inefficient, it requires you to invade Europe and hope to be in a position were a bigger western power wont take offense to that, its simply much much easer to sell to a hightech OPM.
You just conquer gelre/friesland, to get border with holland, what is the problem with that? Even if it have high tech, it should not be a problem for any decent muslim power.
Again, at +200 relations selling your coastal province to a landlocked European is 'Very Unlikely'. Try it yourself. With good diplo monarch it takes just few years, rarely more than 10.
Because it can be done just as easy as selling a coastal province without the need to go conquer problomatic provence for the period of westernisation