westernization strategy for a (strong) outsider

[Dustman]

In a normal setup westernization is quite easy: select Patron of the Arts as your first NI, move centralization slider to the left and wait for events to become innovative enough. For both Native Americans, Africans, Indians and Chinese it works well, whatever your do otherwise.

More tricky challenge provide Muslims and above. The Mamelukes or Hungary are relatively easy, since it's quite hard to keep tech pace with Western group. But free traders like Morocco, Oman, Ragusa and Novgorod are damn hard to westernize, not because of sliders, but due to heavy reliance on trade and, as result, good tech speed. Since they rely on trade, trade lvl should be kept as high as possible. Navies are very important for Oman and Ragusa, bit less important for Morocco and can be safely ignored by Novgorod. Armies are important for them all, since aggressive neighbors are many and manpower is relatively low. So, all you can 'forget' to research is Production and Government. Latter is very nice to have at lvl 10 (better income, trade chance, lower RR), and former at lvl 8 (Workshops, for higher FL). Your buddies in the tech group will research everything, eventually giving quite sizable neighboring bonus, so slowing down your research enough to get gap of 20 levels is quite a challenge. Researching in one or two fields ahead of time works quite well, unless your best Western friends of Navarra, Bar and Holland are annexed.

Even better works mass colonization of some poor worthless (for a time) provinces. Start mass colonization and few NI slots you have will be used for something relatively useless, taking slots of NTP, SCP and NB. Colonies never pay back quick, and even European tech leader is slowed by serious colonization effort. Magistrates will be spent in colonies as well, and this is the most limiting of all resources. Unless you're playing Russians or Ottomans, these magistrates will have better RoI used on Armories and similar, and for Ottomans and Russians, on Temples and Constables in provinces with good tax and population. But, again, you want to slow down your research...

To sum up: as Morocco or Oman, colonize Africa and/or Americas. As Poland or Russians, ignore Government, Naval and, possibly, Production. Ragusa - get lost, you'll never be in Western group .

Any other ideas?

 

[The-King]

I disagree about your tech priorities with Novgorod. Here is what I would do as Novgorod:
Land: main focus
Government: Secondary focus (aim at hitting govt 11)
Production: aim to 8 then ignore it
Trade: can be ignored
naval: can be ignored(even more so then trade)

 

[Dustman]

Novgorod: Step 1: destroy the CoT.
Step 2: Get NTP.
Step 3: Destroy Muscovy, while avoiding high BB.
Step 4: Decimate GH.

Steps 1 and 2 lead to very good tech progression, remove hostility of merchant leagues, provide good money for inflation free build up and enough funds for mercs in time of need. Trade is a key to Novgorodian success. Muscovy would suit your strategy far better.

 

[Comradebot]

I also disagree with moving Centralization first, I'm usually far happier getting my Innovative going in the right direction. If you're in one of the super-crap tech groups, like Sub-Saharan, it can be nice to milk every little bit of teching out of em' as you can.

 

[Nunn45]

I prefer centralisation first, innovative has many more events that will give you free Innovative moves and if you can get high enough tech and a good leader you can use patron of the Arts for more Innovative moves.

 

[The-King]

Novgorod: Step 1: destroy the CoT.
Step 2: Get NTP.
Step 3: Destroy Muscovy, while avoiding high BB.
Step 4: Decimate GH.

Steps 1 and 2 lead to very good tech progression, remove hostility of merchant leagues, provide good money for inflation free build up and enough funds for mercs in time of need. Trade is a key to Novgorodian success. Muscovy would suit your strategy far better.

I agree with this, trade is definitely important for novgorod. However theres the problem of trying to trade and getting what you need to form russia while also keeping BB low (not to mention trying to keep the russian minors from getting annexed by the GH)

 

[Dustman]

I agree with this, trade is definitely important for novgorod. However theres the problem of trying to trade and getting what you need to form russia while also keeping BB low (not to mention trying to keep the russian minors from getting annexed by the GH)

Frankly, you don't NEED to form Russia. If you do, however, annexation of minors by GH is probably the best thing for you. You'll fight GH eventually, and with superior troops it's much easier, and smaller country acquires superior troops earlier. But it's only true if you don't want to accumulate BB.


As for innovation or centralization... Even as Indian tech group, you can get PotA latest by 1420s/1430s, and resulting events will most likely move your Inno slider to required position by the time Europeans come, leaving Centralization as the only slider to take care of. Although I prefer Free Trade move myself

 

[Dauth]

Playing an OPM Cyprus trading monstrosity I've managed to be tech leader (to the point where I'm bright green and all of Europe is Orange or Red) in the Eastern tech group by ~1700(ish). If you can keep up then don't bother Westernising at all is the other option.

 

[unmerged(136527)]

How many of the tech needs to be 20 levels behind?

 

[unmerged(475128)]

How many of the tech needs to be 20 levels behind?

20 techs behind overall, so you can be 4 behind in each tech.

 

[Dustman]

20 techs behind overall, so you can be 4 behind in each tech.

And this is damn hard for a trader. Keeping one or two techs on par while ignoring everything else is possible, but doesn't work all the time. As Novgorod, I had Naval 15 w/o investing a dime into it by time Trade and Land were lvl 22. Decimated Poland and Ragusa drove whole Oriental group...

 

[cywang86]

The smaller you are, the harder it is to be behind on tech due to the neighbor bonus and lower tech cost. Besides, if you're getting 'tech ahead of its time' on the most important ones (trade -> land -> gov for you), what's the rush on westernizing?
If you're afraid that one westernize target neighbor will get devoured, just vassalize or guarantee him.

Westernization is only a means to be strong. It's not a problem at all when you're so strong that you can't even westernize.

Most of the ace European nations should be easily locked down by your superior navy so you won't have to worry about their superior land force. When their land armies do sneak onto your mainland, they won't be that big of a stack anyway and can easily be routed.

 

[yezhanquan]

Also, besides Westernising your tech, you also have to modernise your army if you want more powerful units. That can be... ouch.

 

[El Jojo]

Not westernizing is not that bad, if you're a big power. Russia leading in land tech can afford not having western units, tech lead and mass troops should be enough to be safe, since Russia can't exactly isolate itself with a navy.

Oman can be a bit trickier, since manpower and landlimits won't allow this strategy. If you're bordered by a huge Austria which has blobbed to the Caucasus (happened to me once!), then you really need the western units to fight them. And navy is useless in such a case.

So it depends on the specific situation of your country and what advantages you have.

 

[unmerged(136527)]

If I'm 5 tech behind in 4 tech, and ahead in one tech, I still can't westernize?

 

[Dustman]

I had a game with Oman, which had 100k manpower and only 28k FL. Fighting the Emperor with such country is very similar to suicide at higher tech levels. Fortunately, deserts are popular for enemy landings

The only need to westernize is to get western units, eventually. No infantry from outside of Europe can compete with them after ~1650. Predominantly cavalry armies w/o strong fire component are simply decimated.

As for tech levels. Sum of your tech should be at least 20 levels lower than most advanced neighbor's from higher tech group. Only land borders count.

 

[brifbates]

If I'm 5 tech behind in 4 tech, and ahead in one tech, I still can't westernize?

Correct.

Also, it is compared to your highest tech neighbor, not the leading western nations so it doesn't matter if you are 80 techs behind Holland if your best neighbor is only 19 techs ahead of you.

 

[Comradebot]

Well, I took PotA early as Mutapa... and the event never bloody fired for me. I even left a couple of ticks on Innovate waiting for it to fire once or twice while I move centralization up.

Never happened, had to Westernizing without it.

So I'm a bit skeptical of ever trusting that, and will gladly make my first moves in Innovative. Even if it does fire once or twice, it'll require me to move it a few times, during which I'll go ahead and move innovative first as I'll probably have to move it at least a few times regardless of the event firing or not.


And I do get sad, sometimes, that I need to modernize the military. The real problem is, at least in DW, once you start down the path you're stuck until you modernize the military to your current tech group level. If you don't, you'll be stuck with the "Western Influences" for the rest of the game, and even if you resist them to avoid the nasty events, you'll still have to deal with the massive boost to stability costs. This is what finally forced me to do so with Romania... I was happy with my Eastern military units and the ability to cavalry swarm my enemies, but I'd grown too large to keep the stability cheap. Between that, and Trollhemia blobbing in the west, I was kinda forced to finally pull the trigger. Always feel "wrong" when I westernize as an Eastern power... means I can't create a Cossack army of death like a proper Eastern nation. I mean, I could stick with it and create Cossacks... but they'll be so backwards compared to their Western rivals they'll get slapped down without fail.

 

[Nunn45]

Well, I took PotA early as Mutapa... and the event never bloody fired for me. I even left a couple of ticks on Innovate waiting for it to fire once or twice while I move centralization up.

Never happened, had to Westernizing without it.

So I'm a bit skeptical of ever trusting that, and will gladly make my first moves in Innovative. Even if it does fire once or twice, it'll require me to move it a few times, during which I'll go ahead and move innovative first as I'll probably have to move it at least a few times regardless of the event firing or not.


And I do get sad, sometimes, that I need to modernize the military. The real problem is, at least in DW, once you start down the path you're stuck until you modernize the military to your current tech group level. If you don't, you'll be stuck with the "Western Influences" for the rest of the game, and even if you resist them to avoid the nasty events, you'll still have to deal with the massive boost to stability costs. This is what finally forced me to do so with Romania... I was happy with my Eastern military units and the ability to cavalry swarm my enemies, but I'd grown too large to keep the stability cheap. Between that, and Trollhemia blobbing in the west, I was kinda forced to finally pull the trigger. Always feel "wrong" when I westernize as an Eastern power... means I can't create a Cossack army of death like a proper Eastern nation. I mean, I could stick with it and create Cossacks... but they'll be so backwards compared to their Western rivals they'll get slapped down without fail.

Was your leader a 6 admin or higher? its required for it to have a chance to fire. Of course its still luck based so you may never actually get it to fire sometimes or in my case have it fire twice in less then 5 years.

Yeh the whole Modernise your Military or suffer horribly is a bit silly...would be nice to at least have the option to keep your native Unit tree which as of now don't get used by any one unless they are a super fast teching nation Eastern/Muslim nation that can ignore westernisation...such as my Zaporozhian game

 

[Comradebot]

Was your leader a 6 admin or higher? its required for it to have a chance to fire. Of course its still luck based so you may never actually get it to fire sometimes or in my case have it fire twice in less then 5 years.

Yeh the whole Modernise your Military or suffer horribly is a bit silly...would be nice to at least have the option to keep your native Unit tree which as of now don't get used by any one unless they are a super fast teching nation Eastern/Muslim nation that can ignore westernisation...such as my Zaporozhian game

Yep, always had six or higher in Admin (until I finally reached the point to Modernize the Military, in which case my ruler promptly died). Just had absolutely no luck, and as such I'm going to remain hesitant in any future westernization required runs to depend on PoTA to fire its event. Even so, you very well may find yourself without a skilled enough ruler for the majority of that time, as you very well may lack the ability to switch to some form of elective government and switch until you get one.