Westernization Overall Idea

[krushka5]

Introduction
I've decided to express my idea on how westernization could be made more fun and fluid. The current system of throwing monarch points into a slowly progressing bar although an efficient system, is not very fun for the player and too easy for the AI to exploit. It also seems to only benefit the westernization targets, of which seems unfitting considering the game is meant to simulate the passage of time that Europe began its rise to global dominance.

I would propose connecting Westernization to a new diplomatic option where you westernize through the contribution (or more so demands) of Western nations instead of by sharing borders and expending copious amounts of power points. non-westernized nations would have to improve relations with Western nations to the point where the westernization target can request support for their westernization.

Westernization Tab
A new tab could be introduced that offers western nations options to interact with westernization targets (after agreeing to help westernize a state), somewhat like the existing vassal system, although more involved and the westernization target would remain completely independent. These options would allow the player to make demands to westernization targets in promise of technological exchange, for example:

You could select an option that sends an event to the westernization target (one of many options) that could:

• Demand that the primitive nation adopts/sign an unequal trade treaty that if accepted gives the western nation trade and economic bonuses at the cost of raised autonomy levels and a permanent minus trade efficiency modifier in the westernization target.

The westernization target however would then be given a number of event options in dealing with the demands, from directly refusing the demand potentially sparking a conflict (and canceling the westernization), attempting to negotiate more equal terms or accepting the offer as given.

• Demand that a military presence is established within the target nation (in the form of a fort) increasing the autonomy of ONE coastal province substantially or if dealt with incorrectly could even have it ceded to the western power.

The westernization target would be given a number of event options, with one option that cancels the westernization as well as potentially sparking conflict, an option that negotiates with the western nation for fairer terms and one that openly complies with the demand.

• Demand that the targeted nation converts to your religion, giving the westernization target the option to accept, decline which would cancel westernization as well as potentially sparking conflict or negotiate which would allow western missionaries into the nation establishing what is the equivalent of a center of reformation (however significantly weaker in range and capacity) but instead would spread Catholicism, etc.
• Demand that advisers from your nation help oversee the nations governance, which if accepted would give the target a small increase in autonomy across the entire nation and cost the nation significant power points (the exact sum would be given to the western nation presumably through an event), negotiate which would cost the target nation a moderate amount of power points (the exact sum would be given to the western nation presumably through an event) or refuse which would end the westernization and potentially lead to conflict.

Timeline and Progress of Westernization
There would still be a bar that is progressed although instead of investing monarch points, the speed of the westernization bar would be dictated by the westernization targets reactions to the system proposed under the heading Westernization Tab. There would also be three stages of which the westernization bar halts, one at the beginning, one at the middle and one at the end.These are the points that the Western Nation interacts with the Westernization Target through the Westernization Tab. They also represent the Diplomatic, Military and Administrative technology groups and at each pause; the options offered to the Western nation to make demands, would be linked into each of these technology types, with all three having to be fulfilled for Westernization. Other factors could influence the time it takes to westernize, as expressed in other sections of this suggestion.

Events during Westernization
On the side of all this, random events should trigger based off the westernization targets decisions. For example if the target nation complies with unfair western demands, events causing increased revolt risk, drops in stability and revolts should have the option of being triggered. If the target nation selects an option with the perception of coming out adventurously positive events should trigger that increase development randomly, increase stability and offering temporary national taxation offers.

As well as these events, events relating to default tech group (such as Muslim, Chinese etc), universal events (

• A western trader commits a crime such as a fling with a local noblewomen or murder and gets caught and the westernized nation demands to intrude on the non western nations sovereignty and extradite the criminal to his home country to be judged instead of face local backlash , which if agreed would decrees the amount of time to westernize at the cost of temporary revolt risk or if refused would increase time to westernize at the benefit of a stability increase
• A Ulama spreads anti-western sentiment among his local community, leading to an armed revolt
• A envoy from from the western nation shares some western teachings with the target nation, offering a 100 admin points (or something down those lines)
• As the westerners trade influence within our realm grows, requests to construct new ports from western traders has been request offering the option to have a permanent provincial modifier granting a trade and development cost reduction boost placed on a random coastal province or to deny them and get a +5 mercantilism.

Disaster Component
Certain nations should have disaster components that trigger if the nation does not westernize swiftly. Cant think of much here honestly as I cant think of any real westernization during EU4's timeline. I suppose a disaster could be introduced for the Japanese with the Shogunate resisting westernization as the conflict was inevitable under such circumstances.

If no specifics can be identified or fabricated, the idea could be utilized in a general sense or it could be ignored.


Side Notes

• There should be some form of risk or criterion required in mediating with western powers in certain options. It could be simulated through sending an event back to the Western power to act on, or through requiring certain idea groups such or tech levels (which would simulate the ability of 1600's china's ability to negotiate in comparison to 1600's native Americans who are on a lower tech level).
• Such a system would require offering the player a wide range of options for all three types of technologies, to keep it fresh and prevent it from becoming boring.
• <edited in>* I mutilated the heading didn't I....

 

[Gam Enthusiast]

This sounds like an interesting thing to add and if done right it would be a good addition to the game.

 

[Imgran]

What I'd prefer is just to throw the whole thing out and replace it with a slider bar that you can occasionally manipulate with events and decisions, between Innovation and Traditionalism. At the start of the game most European nations would be more Innovative, since they were behind in the arms race against the Muslims at that point, but it wouldn't necessarily have to stay that way.

How to balance it: more Traditional nations don't tech up as quickly but would tend to be more stable and prosperous and their armies fight better using the tech they have until they encounter a nation too advanced for them to handle. Meanwhile innovative nations are less stable, but advance technology quicker. This means that innovative nations would dominate the long game, but the short game might belong to more traditional empires such as the Ottomans.

What this would accomplish is it would permit a player to input decisions on where along this sliding scale he wants to be. It would also make playthroughs a lot less cookie-cutter and restore the advantages of staying small and agile.

How to balance Innovation and Tradition would become a strategy rather than a static set point. Large empires would benefit from the stability of being traditionalist while homogenous small states would benefit from the technological leg up. However a skilled player should definitely be capable of sustaining, with skill, a large innovative empire. because those definitely happened (ref: Britain)

How to work a westernization like thing into the game would be possibly the ability to massively destabilize your nation by forcing it in the direction of Innovation against the wishes most of its people the way Russia westernized, shedding stability and creating massive revolt risk for 30 years. The farther to the left you push the slider, the more national revolt risk you have to burn off, and if the rebels win, the slider moves to the right. This would be especially inadvisable for large empires in a moment of weakness, but homogenous states and empires at the height of their strength could endure it more easily. Furthermore, you can get a boost to stability by moving in the direction of traditionalism, and inciting a more modest temporary boost to revolt risk as the avant-garde show their displeasure. This would be the move of a weak empire trying to hold itself together and recover from setbacks or bad events but it could pay off in the medium term.

I consider this scheme both more agile and flexible and more historically reasonable. More to the point, what I'm describing is an actual gameplay mechanic, something that can be played with over time, which I really feel westernization is not.

 

[krushka5]

What I'd prefer is just to throw the whole thing out and replace it with a slider bar that you can occasionally manipulate with events and decisions, between Innovation and Traditionalism. At the start of the game most European nations would be more Innovative, since they were behind in the arms race against the Muslims at that point, but it wouldn't necessarily have to stay that way.

How to balance it: more Traditional nations don't tech up as quickly but would tend to be more stable and prosperous and their armies fight better using the tech they have until they encounter a nation too advanced for them to handle. Meanwhile innovative nations are less stable, but advance technology quicker. This means that innovative nations would dominate the long game, but the short game might belong to more traditional empires such as the Ottomans.

What this would accomplish is it would permit a player to input decisions on where along this sliding scale he wants to be. It would also make playthroughs a lot less cookie-cutter and restore the advantages of staying small and agile.

How to balance Innovation and Tradition would become a strategy rather than a static set point. Large empires would benefit from the stability of being traditionalist while homogenous small states would benefit from the technological leg up. However a skilled player should definitely be capable of sustaining, with skill, a large innovative empire. because those definitely happened (ref: Britain)

How to work a westernization like thing into the game would be possibly the ability to massively destabilize your nation by forcing it in the direction of Innovation against the wishes most of its people the way Russia westernized, shedding stability and creating massive revolt risk for 30 years. The farther to the left you push the slider, the more national revolt risk you have to burn off, and if the rebels win, the slider moves to the right. This would be especially inadvisable for large empires in a moment of weakness, but homogenous states and empires at the height of their strength could endure it more easily. Furthermore, you can get a boost to stability by moving in the direction of traditionalism, and inciting a more modest temporary boost to revolt risk as the avant-garde show their displeasure. This would be the move of a weak empire trying to hold itself together and recover from setbacks or bad events but it could pay off in the medium term.

I consider this scheme both more agile and flexible and more historically reasonable. More to the point, what I'm describing is an actual gameplay mechanic, something that can be played with over time, which I really feel westernization is not.

I don't think that this is particularly very representative on how societies actually functioned. Certainly Ming and Qing maintained traditionalist governments but many of its reforms where highly innovative. The Ottomans are another example of a society that expressed a wide range of innovative reforms. Such a concept would hinder historically 'innovative' states like the Kingdom of Prussia that was traditionalist but also extremely innovative in its scientific, legal, development, military and agriculture sectors.

I feel that your conceptualization of innovation is more a euro-centrist observation/justification for why Europe thrived. Certainly the game is European focused but applying such a theory as a gameplay mechanic would likely divide the community as well as only satisfy part of the historical narrative.

I agree that the stages in EU4's timeline should be represented more profusely, which would more accurately capture your envisioned shift towards European innovation. The age of Discovery is well developed (although the Colombian exchange could use a bit of work) but the Renaissance and Enlightenment seem to be poorly represented.

Westernization should remain a process to replicate the West, instead of an abstract concept of shifting between arbitrary degrees of innovation and traditionalism. This being said Innovation played a colossal role in the European mindset during the 18th century and could be represented through some sort of enlightenment system instead of a westernization system. I believe the system I provide a significant upgrade on the current system as well as more entertaining and accurate to how westernization actually functions.