Westernization NOT worth it?

[The_Pursuader]

I'm playing as Russia and got westernized.
Since the westernization my stability cost went from 59AMP to 258AMP due to the +200% stab cost. On top of that I continuously get bad events that drop my stability level.
The worst events are those that make me choose between -30 legitimacy and -100 military points OR -1 stability. Usually I go for the -1 stab because I really need high legitimacy for constant annexation of vassals.
All these events tend to stagnate my technologies at an annoying rate. The result of westernization seems to be a constant stability, legitimacy and monarch point loss.
As the +200% stability cost isn't listed in the country modifiers tab I fear that the effects will last until endgame, 1821.
I once was at +2 stability again but it rapidly dropped to -3 due to a constant flow of bad events (... resist westernization). I don't even see the point anymore in further increasing my stability to any more than -2 in order to be able to declare war.

My questions:
How long do the negative effects (increased stab cost + bad events) of westernization last?
Is there anything one can do to prevent these bad events from triggering?
In the end is it worth it to westernize (as Russia or other nations with a small tech cost malus)? So far it has done nothing but holding me back tech and expansion wise
Can armies be westernized/reformed as in EU3? If so, how? It's not listed in the decisions tab.

 

[Diavolo1988]

You have to complete the westernization. Look on the tech screen. +1 stab means one westernization point per month +2 stab =2 and so on. when you reach 100 points you are finished, and the revolt events stop. It may take you about 10 years of constant revolts actually.

For Russia (and other countries with eastern tech or ottoman tech) westernization isn't that great. It costs the same to westernize for all tech groups, so lower tech gets much more of a boost from westernizing. Still, you get the awesome infantry units. (eastern has decent cavalry and artillery) and Russia has uber cheap infantry, so for Russia I would say it's worth it, especially if you're planning on fighting european powers.

 

[lordelenath]

That sounds like you kinda stumbled into it without a decent plan, which can make it pretty tough. If you're prepared well it seldom takes longer than 20 years and is doable within a decade. Since you already clicked the button, the best tip is to stack admin MPs until you can raise stability to 0. That way you can eat all the -1 stability options without losing anything, which will help a lot. You should also try to afford a +3 adm advisor, if you have to, ignore mil and dip - best would be an artist (-10 stability cost).

The negative events last until you've completed westernization. It ticks at +1% (out of 100) per month per positive stability. Which means at +1 stab it will take 100 months to complete.

Westernizing is advisable if you have to face western European nations or if you have a real crappy tech group (say indian, chinese, sub-saharan). It's not entirely necessary as Ottomans, Russia or the Commonwealth (although I tend to westernize anyway in the 1500s). If you've prepared well, it's not that bad. Preparations include:

- good adm ruler and heir (at least 3, the higher the better), the ruler should be to old to minimize the risk of a -1 stability death
- money for +3 adm advisor (preferably artist)
- optimal: a +1 stability event firing

Once that happens, you dump all your admin points into cheap buildings (e.g. temples, constables), start culture conversion wherever you couldn't build anything, reroll generals until you have decent ones and use harsh treatment on potentially revolting provinces. Then click westernize (all without unpausing!), cancel all the buildings and culture conversion, accept the +1 stability from the event if you had one. Store admin points until you can raise stability 3x and everything will be good again.

 

[Barbarossa66]

You actually have not westernized yet. You are just in the process of westernizing. In order to complete this you need to to maintain positive stability. Flip to your technology tab and there is now a bar where the westernization button used to be. Once that fills green you will have completed the process. It is accomplished, basically, by maintaining positive stability at all costs.

Don't take any options in the events that decrease your stability.

 

[Zander]

Since you already clicked the button, the best tip is to stack admin MPs until you can raise stability to 0. That way you can eat all the -1 stability options without losing anything, which will help a lot.

The westernization events only give you the -1 stability option if you have stability to lose. It's still worth stockpiling points to avoid random other stab hits, like comets. But you'll still take all the westernization hits like -legitimacy, -prestige, etc.

You should also try to afford a +3 adm advisor, if you have to, ignore mil and dip - best would be an artist (-10 stability cost).

Note that there's a hidden minus to having an artist (or statesman, which you also might have if you were working on annexation) - a westernization event that kills that advisor AND costs you 25 ADM. So I'd only hire an artist for the month that you're actually raising your stability, then replace him.

 

[lordelenath]

That's simply wrong. I had several "chose -1 stab or something else" events while sitting at -3 to wait for adm to pile up.

 

[Novacat]

For Russia (and other countries with eastern tech or ottoman tech) westernization isn't that great. It costs the same to westernize for all tech groups, so lower tech gets much more of a boost from westernizing. Still, you get the awesome infantry units. (eastern has decent cavalry and artillery) and Russia has uber cheap infantry, so for Russia I would say it's worth it, especially if you're planning on fighting european powers.

You actually got it quite wrong, Eastern infantry is better than cavalry, and almost on par with Western infantry even at endgame. Eastern cavalry starts off strong but becomes pathetically weak by endgame. Artillery is the same across all tech groups.

Thus theres a fairly strong argument for not westernizing as eastern tech group.

If your not eastern, though, its westernize or die.

 

[gaius valerius]

Didn't Russians eventually get a unit in their own tech group which was more or less on par with western types? Also if you manage to wrestle a core from a western country (say Sweden) you can create their units in that province, though I don't think those units upgrade with the Swedish tech once you've conquered it? As the Ottomans I in that fashion replaced my jannisaries with mauricians XD

 

[Novacat]

Mass Infantry, with 52 pips compared to 60 pips on Napoleonic Square. All other tech groups have 28-38 pips.

 

[panionios]

YES, you should westernize because eventually you will fight the westerners. And it's very easy.

1. Stack ADM points until you can go straight to 0. This way, you can choose to take the stab hit from nasty events, since you are already at -3
2. Hire a lever 3 ADM advisor, not only to collect ADM faster but because they give positive stab events. Assuming you have an average 3 ADM ruler, that's 9 ADM pcm! Fire other advisors if you are losing money.
3. You can always do the trick of having as many ADM as necessary to build ADM buildings in all your provinces when ready to westernise. You spend them, click the westernise button, then undo the building action. Let's say you have 30 provinces, that't 200 ADM points straight away (less time to reaching 999 ADM).
4. Have high legitimacy and don't annex vassals of different religion/culture during that time or you'll have many rebellions. Otherwise rebellions are not an issue.

You should be back in business in a decade. With the -10% technology idea and neighbour bonus, you can catch up really fast.

EDIT: Westernize and be back at +2 stab before 1550 to avoid Times of Trouble.

 

[Rey]

I've been playing Novgorod and it's 1760 now, I'm on par with the West in Admin and Military tech. I only stay severely behind in Diplo tech because I used almost all my points in Diplo ideas and peace deals. I'm doing fine without Westernizing.

 

[mocoman2001]

You have to complete the westernization. Look on the tech screen. +1 stab means one westernization point per month +2 stab =2 and so on. when you reach 100 points you are finished, and the revolt events stop. It may take you about 10 years of constant revolts actually.

For Russia (and other countries with eastern tech or ottoman tech) westernization isn't that great. It costs the same to westernize for all tech groups, so lower tech gets much more of a boost from westernizing. Still, you get the awesome infantry units. (eastern has decent cavalry and artillery) and Russia has uber cheap infantry, so for Russia I would say it's worth it, especially if you're planning on fighting european powers.

eastern does not have to westernize, but the ottomans will have to in the late game because there units take a huge hit in quality compared to western towards the end. The ottomans can put it off for a long time though, up until the last few troop upgrades they are competitive with western.

 

[Rey]

eastern does not have to westernize, but the ottomans will have to in the late game because there units take a huge hit in quality compared to western towards the end. The ottomans can put it off for a long time though, up until the last few troop upgrades they are competitive with western.

Around which Mil tech level do the Ottos fall significantly behind the West?

 

[Novacat]

Around which Mil tech level do the Ottos fall significantly behind the West?

They start to fall behind at miltech 26 but the gap widens considerably at miltech 29.

 

[Zander]

That's simply wrong. I had several "chose -1 stab or something else" events while sitting at -3 to wait for adm to pile up.

Well, again, any of the standard events (that any country can get even when not westernizing) will fire. Some of those involve a "-1 stab or something else" choice, including but not limited to:
- Scandal at Court
- Poor Government Policies
- Unhappiness among the Artisans/Peasantry
- Political Crisis
- Corruption

so there's plenty of reason to keep your stab at -3 while you stockpile points. It's just all the westernization-specific events that don't offer a choice when you're at -3.

 

[Rey]

They start to fall behind at miltech 26 but the gap widens considerably at miltech 29.

ty

 

[grisamentum]

They start to fall behind at miltech 26 but the gap widens considerably at miltech 29.

Well, they also suffer from having no unit upgrade from 12 to 19, even if their milteach 19 unit is on par.

 

[wolfing]

i never westernize as Eastern, but anything else yes, you have to.

 

[trojan1234]

Why not other skill 3 advisors?

Pile up enough cash. Hire skill 3 adm/dip/mil advisors just before starting westernization. They have unique events raising +1 stab. You would have 2 out 3 in first 5 years.
Normal stab +1 event / raise +1/+2 with saved adm / +2 stab from advisor events. -> 7 years to finish westernization.

If you have strong army, do not bother with legitimacy. 20 legitimacy ? Annex all vassals before the king dies and westernize. The king would suffer 0 legitimacy all the time but you cannot have negative legitimacy Theologian(-3RR) would be your best friend. Trash all legitimacy hits with the king and build up higher legitimacy with your heir.

 

[eugene171]

I don't have the link to the math, but someone calculated that any later than 1700, westernizing for eastern tech groups is more expensive in admin points than just sticking it out.